here's a link to a video of making muting plugswww.davidnavone.com scroll down towards the bottom of the page to "mute the amp"
Monster Cable RCA's?
- Thread starter joshpoints
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Here's a couple of suggestions. This is going to be time consuming but this might work. Run the power cable and remote wire on one side of the car. Then run the RCA and speaker cables on the other side of the car. If you have more than one amp, ground both amps together or ground them no more than 1 inch apart. If you can, take off any paint to make sure your getting a solid metal contact. The receiver can be ground from the factory ground and DO NOT ground anything else. When your running the power cable from the battery through your firewall, try to run it as far away from the spark plug wires as possible. If this doesn't work, then you know its not any of the cables or faulty installation and its probably the amp.
- Thread Starter
- #19
I can't really separate my left front speaker wire from my power cable. Amps are currently grounded to one point. When you guys mention loop are the rca's picking up interference from their outer insulation or is it picked up at the actual rca connection? My thinking is maybe I'll run my rca's through a wire loom? I'll have to see if I have a factory ground for the H/U. I reground the h/u to a new point that is as metallic as you can get in past to try and prevent this issue.
It will look tacky but maybe I'll run rca's on top of carpet? Then everyone knows I have a system though.
- Thread Starter
- #20
Thanks for the link. I made the mutes and there was no noise even when I turned on the head lights air conditioning and external amp fan.
So my amp is okay. Doesn't this test technically prove that the problem isn't in the speaker wires as well? So I'm down to h/u ground which I'm positive it has a great ground right now. Or it could be the amp ground which I think is decent but I may try changing this ground. Or rca's location or just crappy rca's. I have a lot of work ahead of me tomorrow. Think I'm going to try running the rca's down the middle of the car which is going to require at minimum removal of the rear seat.
you are learning how to trouble shoot. to say changing rcas would have just fixxed it noone would know but now you are figureing it out. when you learn a few tricks to doing so trouble shooting takes less time and the actual fix becomes known to you at a point you yourself can make the choices you want/need. knowledge is a key factor and if your friends have noise problems you can help them probably pretty well and you could even charge them to make up from some of your audio costs.....
- Thread Starter
- #22
Would wrapping the rca cables in foil help or make issue worse? I would wrap each one independently. I say this because it seems like back in the past it became popular for radio control car driver's to wrap the receivers in foil to block out interference from the motor and speed control.
that dude's got some nasty fingernails
- Thread Starter
- #24
Are there any negatives to running ground loop isolators in your system?
- Thread Starter
- #25
Interesting article I found.
Loop Area Noise
There’s a decade’s old myth in car audio that running the signal cables down one side of the car and the power wires down the other side of the car will prevent noise from coupling into the system. The problem with this concept is that the car’s chassis is the largest wire in the car’s electrical system. All electrical accessories, including the car stereo components, use the car’s chassis as the ground return to the case of the alternator or the battery’s negative post. As soon as the signal cables are laid next to the car’s chassis, noise can easily couple into the signal path. How does the noise couple into the stereo system? The answer is by way of the loop area created by the signal cables.
Loop area can be defined as the separation of the conductors multiplied by the length of the cable run. Since the channels are connected together at the source (i.e., the deck) and again at the input of the next stage (i.e., the amp), a loop forms in the signal path. At any one instant in time, this loop causes a different noise in the (+) and (-) conductors due to their physical separation. This difference noise is added to the original signal and manifests itself as alternator whine, ignition ticks, accessory pops, etc.
With a simple mono signal cable, the width of the loop is the distance between the conductors times the length of the cable run. With small UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair) cables, the separation between conductors can be less than 1 mm — the thickness of the insulation. With larger co-axial designs, the separation distance can be as much as 7 mm. This is one reason why double and triple-shielded cables have major problems for low frequency noise.
With a stereo pair of cables, a second loop is created between the left and right channel pairs. The loop is defined as the distance between the channels multiplied by the length of the cable run. With some side-by-side cables, the separation of the left and right pairs can be 10 mm. This is why signal cables with control leads separating the left and right conductors pick up more noise than cables without the added separation. With UTP designs, the distances between the left and right channel pairs is minimized again.
When four-channel decks became popular, there weren’t very many four-channel signal cables. This meant that two pairs of two-channel cables were often used. Many installers called with complaints such as, “The system was pretty quiet on two channels, but as soon as we plugged one or both of the rear channels, alternator whine appeared.”
The reason that the alternator whine appeared in the four-channel system was that yet another loop area is formed between the front channel pairs and the rear channel pairs. This loop was not complete until one, or both, of the rear channels were connected into the system. Four-channel loop area is defined as the separation of the front and rear channels, multiplied by the length of the cable run.
The mono cable has a simple loop between the two conductors. A stereo cable has loops in each channel and a loop between the two channels. A four-channel cable has loops in each channel, a loop between the front channels, another loop between the rear channels, another loop between the front and rear channels, etc. The point here is that when low frequency noise is a concern, then minimizing the loop area presented by the signal cables is of paramount importance.
A properly designed signal cable will optimize the individual conductors, the paired conductors, and the front and rear conductors. Although it may be possible to hand-wind a mono cable, it’s not possible to use a Makita drill to make a stereo pair of signal cables. Uniformly hand-winding the eight conductors required for four-channel cables would be nearly impossible.
Surround Systems
Whenever a new technology emerges, we notice that many of the specifications that define a quality component are conspicuously missing. For instance, when the first DSP decks arrived on the scene, their output level was in the 2-volt range. Also, the source impedance, dynamic range, etc. were not particularly impressive. A component with a high source impedance and a low signal level will be more susceptible to low frequency inductive noise than a component with 10 volts of signal in series with a low source impedance. Many of the new mobile surround components suffer from this problem. In many instances, the new technology makes the sale, not the specs.
Our editorial director, Rob Hephner, mentioned that he was implementing a multichannel surround system in a new install. This means that the signal cable requirement will be at least 5.1 channels (six channels of audio). Multi channels mean more loops and more chances for noise to become a problem. Rob was looking at using a four-channel cable and a regular stereo cable for this system; however, there would always be a huge loop between the two cable runs. So, Rob asked Rusty Everett at Monster Cable to supply a six-channel cable in their new XLN-PRO design. This cable design is the quietest we’ve ever measured.
Checking for Cable-Induced Noise
It’s possible that cable-induced noise is creeping into your regular stereo system, your four-channel system, or your new multichannel surround system. To find out if your system is picking up noise in the signal cables, one method is to simply eliminate the signal cables and “move the deck.” Temporarily relocate the deck to the vicinity of the amp and use very short signal cables or male-male RCA gender changers to connect the output of the deck to the input of the amp. If the noise goes away, then the cables are the problem.
If this test seems too difficult, it may be possible to temporarily reroute the signal cables outside the vehicle for the tests. If the noise lessens when the signal cables are moved, then there’s a good possibility that the cables are picking up the noise. Be sure to turn on the vehicle’s headlights and listen to the stereo system on a quiet passage.
The solution to the problem of cable-induced noise is to use signal cables designed for high quality audio and extremely low noise. And, for noise-free surround systems, using the right signal cables takes on even greater importance.
Loop Area Noise
There’s a decade’s old myth in car audio that running the signal cables down one side of the car and the power wires down the other side of the car will prevent noise from coupling into the system. The problem with this concept is that the car’s chassis is the largest wire in the car’s electrical system. All electrical accessories, including the car stereo components, use the car’s chassis as the ground return to the case of the alternator or the battery’s negative post. As soon as the signal cables are laid next to the car’s chassis, noise can easily couple into the signal path. How does the noise couple into the stereo system? The answer is by way of the loop area created by the signal cables.
Loop area can be defined as the separation of the conductors multiplied by the length of the cable run. Since the channels are connected together at the source (i.e., the deck) and again at the input of the next stage (i.e., the amp), a loop forms in the signal path. At any one instant in time, this loop causes a different noise in the (+) and (-) conductors due to their physical separation. This difference noise is added to the original signal and manifests itself as alternator whine, ignition ticks, accessory pops, etc.
With a simple mono signal cable, the width of the loop is the distance between the conductors times the length of the cable run. With small UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair) cables, the separation between conductors can be less than 1 mm — the thickness of the insulation. With larger co-axial designs, the separation distance can be as much as 7 mm. This is one reason why double and triple-shielded cables have major problems for low frequency noise.
With a stereo pair of cables, a second loop is created between the left and right channel pairs. The loop is defined as the distance between the channels multiplied by the length of the cable run. With some side-by-side cables, the separation of the left and right pairs can be 10 mm. This is why signal cables with control leads separating the left and right conductors pick up more noise than cables without the added separation. With UTP designs, the distances between the left and right channel pairs is minimized again.
When four-channel decks became popular, there weren’t very many four-channel signal cables. This meant that two pairs of two-channel cables were often used. Many installers called with complaints such as, “The system was pretty quiet on two channels, but as soon as we plugged one or both of the rear channels, alternator whine appeared.”
The reason that the alternator whine appeared in the four-channel system was that yet another loop area is formed between the front channel pairs and the rear channel pairs. This loop was not complete until one, or both, of the rear channels were connected into the system. Four-channel loop area is defined as the separation of the front and rear channels, multiplied by the length of the cable run.
The mono cable has a simple loop between the two conductors. A stereo cable has loops in each channel and a loop between the two channels. A four-channel cable has loops in each channel, a loop between the front channels, another loop between the rear channels, another loop between the front and rear channels, etc. The point here is that when low frequency noise is a concern, then minimizing the loop area presented by the signal cables is of paramount importance.
A properly designed signal cable will optimize the individual conductors, the paired conductors, and the front and rear conductors. Although it may be possible to hand-wind a mono cable, it’s not possible to use a Makita drill to make a stereo pair of signal cables. Uniformly hand-winding the eight conductors required for four-channel cables would be nearly impossible.
Surround Systems
Whenever a new technology emerges, we notice that many of the specifications that define a quality component are conspicuously missing. For instance, when the first DSP decks arrived on the scene, their output level was in the 2-volt range. Also, the source impedance, dynamic range, etc. were not particularly impressive. A component with a high source impedance and a low signal level will be more susceptible to low frequency inductive noise than a component with 10 volts of signal in series with a low source impedance. Many of the new mobile surround components suffer from this problem. In many instances, the new technology makes the sale, not the specs.
Our editorial director, Rob Hephner, mentioned that he was implementing a multichannel surround system in a new install. This means that the signal cable requirement will be at least 5.1 channels (six channels of audio). Multi channels mean more loops and more chances for noise to become a problem. Rob was looking at using a four-channel cable and a regular stereo cable for this system; however, there would always be a huge loop between the two cable runs. So, Rob asked Rusty Everett at Monster Cable to supply a six-channel cable in their new XLN-PRO design. This cable design is the quietest we’ve ever measured.
Checking for Cable-Induced Noise
It’s possible that cable-induced noise is creeping into your regular stereo system, your four-channel system, or your new multichannel surround system. To find out if your system is picking up noise in the signal cables, one method is to simply eliminate the signal cables and “move the deck.” Temporarily relocate the deck to the vicinity of the amp and use very short signal cables or male-male RCA gender changers to connect the output of the deck to the input of the amp. If the noise goes away, then the cables are the problem.
If this test seems too difficult, it may be possible to temporarily reroute the signal cables outside the vehicle for the tests. If the noise lessens when the signal cables are moved, then there’s a good possibility that the cables are picking up the noise. Be sure to turn on the vehicle’s headlights and listen to the stereo system on a quiet passage.
The solution to the problem of cable-induced noise is to use signal cables designed for high quality audio and extremely low noise. And, for noise-free surround systems, using the right signal cables takes on even greater importance.
- Thread Starter
- #26
WOOHOO WOOHOOO YEAH YEAAHHHHHH!!!!!! TEH #1!!!!!
Finally got rid of that whine. Earlier today I decided to take the rca's out and run them inside the car but away from any metal. The noise went away. So then I knew it wasn't the h/u ground. I then rerouted the wires but I couldn't avoid touching metal. I started the car and the noise came back. I was pissed. I decided to switch my ground. I grounded to the trunk latch bold after grinding down to bare metal. The noise then went away. But I couldn't use this as a permanent ground because to get my sub in I have to take this trunk latch bracket off. I put my sub back in the car reground the wires to the trunk latch point started the car and the sound was back. I figured it was because the ground wasn't as good as the first time I tightened it down. Went to home depot and got a grounding bracket. I drilled a new hole grinded down the paint. Started the car and the noise was there still. I was pissed. I decided that I would give up and learn to deal with it. I decided to try one last thing. I recalled tucking my rca's right up against the power wire in the trunk to hide the rca's completely. I separated the rca's from the piece of power wire they were against and now everythings good.
Turns out I had two problems. One was a bad ground the other was rca's being against the power wire in the trunk.
Thank you all for your time and info.
Finally got rid of that whine. Earlier today I decided to take the rca's out and run them inside the car but away from any metal. The noise went away. So then I knew it wasn't the h/u ground. I then rerouted the wires but I couldn't avoid touching metal. I started the car and the noise came back. I was pissed. I decided to switch my ground. I grounded to the trunk latch bold after grinding down to bare metal. The noise then went away. But I couldn't use this as a permanent ground because to get my sub in I have to take this trunk latch bracket off. I put my sub back in the car reground the wires to the trunk latch point started the car and the sound was back. I figured it was because the ground wasn't as good as the first time I tightened it down. Went to home depot and got a grounding bracket. I drilled a new hole grinded down the paint. Started the car and the noise was there still. I was pissed. I decided that I would give up and learn to deal with it. I decided to try one last thing. I recalled tucking my rca's right up against the power wire in the trunk to hide the rca's completely. I separated the rca's from the piece of power wire they were against and now everythings good.
Turns out I had two problems. One was a bad ground the other was rca's being against the power wire in the trunk.
Thank you all for your time and info.
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