Leftovers from the Second Skin drama...

PArt 2 of 2At this time, Don and I had gone back and forth a couple of times about advertising on DIYMA, and how I would like to handle the situation. We both recognized some what of a conflict but as the owner of the site, it was up to me to make the decision as to how I would proceed.
My biggest concern was identifying myself as someone with a vested interest in the advice I was giving. I was also concerned at the time about the direction DIYMA was taking, but I've given up on that hope. Promoting myself through my signature was pointless when you started threads congratulating me on most of the forums. Your subsequent actions and comments made those gestures seem odd, but I certainly got a lot of exposure in the car audio realm.

So at this same time there were like, 2 or 3 members that saw the aftermath, and had no clue that we had been going back and forth, as far back as 6 or 7 weeks earlier...

... From there, the drama carried over to this forum where several upset members started in on the insults. They brought up these old topics that were long addressed and in my eyes, amended. But still hurt feeling, resentment and lost trust stings, so still the personal attacks and insults continue.
A lot of this was just the death throes of a once great forum. My situation was just the issue people grabbed on to to voice their dismay. I had nothing to do with it and made several public requests that it stop.

SDS – CLD Tile rip off

This one I catch a lot of hell for too.

Don came out with a product that is awesome. All of his testing lead him to the conclusion that many in the industry have known for years. Stronger foil + higher rubber content = better vibration damping.
I think you are confusing your marketing claim about higher rubber content with established fact. I doubt anyone is going to be interested in the technical reasons why this is either irrelevant or even a negative characteristic, so I won't go into it. It is funny that you don't seem to be able to stop. There's nothing wrong with marketing claims, it just feels out of context.

When Don came out with the CLD tiles, I felt threatened. This was an awesome product that has a fierce marketing campaign. The 25% idea is very effective for its intended purpose and an easy to understand approach to noise treatment. The tiles are strong, effective and profitable. Just because I hold a slightly different view point of the 25% idea does not mean that I do not agree with Dons approach. Mine is not all that different from Don’s. I feel that 25% is the least you should do for a constraint layer damper, to reduce the harmonics in the sheet metal. The point of diminishing returns does kick in around 25-30% but that does not mean that the returns stop. I just means that the returns start costing more the higher you get. While 100% and 200% coverage is certainly overkill for most applications, there are some applications where 50%-80% are acceptable, especially when dealing with the insane amounts of energy that some of the SPL competitors place up on the sheet metal of their cars. Dons program works very well for its intended audience, but to apply the idea to every single person, in every single car and assume that they all have the same exact goals is asking too much from any one product. I am sure that I will catch hell for my stance from some of the more vocal forum members, but perhaps this is where we will simply not agree.
I'm glad you are taking a more neutral position on the 25% coverage concept and are not repeating the allegations you have made elsewhere that I am conning people. I was embarrassed for you when your explanations of why full coverage was optimal inevitably degenerated into the kind of gibberish that an unsupportable position requires. Any CLD is a poor choice for an SPL competitor so it's really hard to see how anyone can extrapolate from: "may or may not do more good than harm in extreme applications" to something that has any value to most users. And yes, some applications may benefit from up 40% coverage or so. Getting people to understand the folly and disadvantages of 100% coverage, or worse yet, multiple layers at 100% coverage is more important than that exact number. As long as people understand that there should be a good reason to go over 25%, I'm happy. Let's be clear, since you seem to think people will think less of me for not coming up with the idea of targeted application of vibration dampers. I didn't. I'd expect people to think less of me if I had.

The 25% idea hasn't gained currency because of marketing, fierce or otherwise. It hasn't been accepted because I have perverted the credibility I built with the original SDS in a brilliant reverse marketing campaign. It has been accepted because it works and because engineers and scientists who deal with these things in applications that are much more critical and demanding than aftermarket automotive have stepped forward and said: "Thank god somebody is finally advocating the proper use of constrained layer vibration dampers".

I appreciate the positive comments, but "fierce marketing campaign" is getting mighty close to the con man allegation again. I believe we would all be better off in every product category if people selling products said: "This is my understanding of the science involved with this product and this is the way to make the best use of it at the lowest possible cost". If that's "fierce marketing", I'd like to see more of it everywhere. Slipping the "profitable" snark in is ironic in a way I don't care to go in to here. In reality, telling people the truth is the fiercest marketing there is.

As far as me claiming that I invented the tiles method, this is untrue. I can not make this claim, and neither can anyone that has been in the sound deadening industry for anything less that about 20 years.

I have said this before, and many use it against me. I can see why some would think I implied that but I was not the one that created these things based on what I have said online, but really, all I did was leave out the finer details.

These patches were presented to me by my adhesive manufacture a couple of years ago. They had some left over material from another vendor that was very similar to our product only the patches were smaller than our sheets, and the foil was thicker. I got samples, and tested them out. These worked well, but I wanted to increase the adhesive thickness and try to get to a certain weight. We went back and forth with different butyl formulations a couple of times, and eventually I decided against taking their extra inventory, or going in the direction of the custom product. I can not speaker for Don, so I do not now if he sourced these on his own, or reinvented them, or was simply offered them from his vendor. He very well may have found a custom formulator and brought in the thick foil himself and started from scratch. That is a pretty good possibility. I honestly don’t know, or care, but what I do care about is having the best product in the industry. Second Skin has always had a reputation for being the best so as the owner of the company I had to react to the change in the market. I don’t expect everyone to understand or agree with my decision to come out with the SPL Tiles, but for me, it makes sense. The market changed, and unless I changed with it, unless I adapted to the competition I run the risk of losing out on a share of the market that I certainly enjoy owning, but obviously don’t enjoy sharing.

It was a business move that I made, and stand by.
That's a cute story and it may even be true. I've seen you use it other places in the last few days. I can assure you and everyone else that CLD Tiles are not an off the shelf product. They are the result of many months of development and testing. If a comparable product had been available and its proper use encouraged, I wouldn't have felt the need to enter the market. I find it interesting that you say this product existed already. You announced your intention to bring it to market the day after I launched the new venture, but it took months for you to actually have something in hand to sell. The OEM's have been using patches for decades.

I don't have anything to say about the the rest since it doesn't involve me. I wouldn't have bother responding at all if you hadn't decided that your mea culpa moment presented an irresistible opportunity to slip in some shots at me.

I told you when I launched the commercial SDS that there was plenty of room in the market for both of us. We both had good quality products and people could choose the approach that made sense to them. All of the shady operations out there were where I expected to take market share since I could compete on price selling top quality products.

If I understand what you just wrote, insecurity made you think it was all or nothing for SS. That's a shame. I don't think any of this drama needed to happen. Advertise on DIYMA but let it be. Believe in your own products enough not to panic and leave yourself open to all sorts of accusations and suspicions.

I am not one of the "two sides" people keep referring to. I'm perfectly happy doing what I am doing and have never given any thought to what my competitors are up to. This isn't just a business to me, it is a passion. I'm satisfied with helping people find the right solution to their problems - even if it means not selling them anything at all. Naturally I'm happier when I do sell them something //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I'm happiest when I hear from them after they've completed their project to tell me that got the results they wanted. I'm still bummed about the guy who wasn't able to completely eliminate the whine from his transmission.

 
As am I. Now only if he'd politely suggest the same attitude to his lemmings.

nG
You are mistaking people with axes to grind with people who are willing to do my bidding. In several of the threads that have now disappeared I asked people to knock it off. It made no difference and some told me it had nothing to do with me. Believe it or not, but I have never asked anyone to jump on one of these threads. They are pointless and masturbatory - nothing to do with why and how people use these products. Talk about how to approach a problem or the general concepts involved, but talking about issues from years ago is just gossipy entertainment.

I think you implied that I had something to do with FoxPro's posting to this thread - actually you implied something a good bit cruder. I respect John. He and I have a long history of public interaction, much of it pretty hostile, but I think that interplay has done a lot for our own understanding and the general understanding of the important concepts at work here. Still, the idea that he would do anything I asked him to is laughable.

 
My motive is simply to find truth. Id be glad to hear true statements from either side. If everyone is being honest, nobody has anything to hide. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif I have told Anthony via PM that the truth is a force that pushes one towards freedom. If you are honest, you never have to back down from a disagreement.
Why? Why do you care in the first place? Sorry, I'm missing your motivation. Are you a mediator by trade and this is practice for you or what? You spend an awful lot of time doing this. Guess I'm totally at a loss or you're a saint.....meh....whatev......

And PM convos? This is getting weird, dude.

Again, Ant an myself have history, but we don't exchange PM's. I busted him on my forum "snooping", never said word to him via PM and he's still has an account. Why you're personally communicating to him if you're not involved is odd.

Sure, he's made some poor decisions and has tried to say his side of the story. I'm no angel, either. Fine, call it deuce. I'm not holding anything against the guy, just have lost a lot of respect for his professionalism and business ethics. And he probably could care less what I think at this point, so....

But keep up the truth-seeker bit, man. I doubt you'll find it, but if it's like your life's mission, I ain't gonna stop ya. You go girl.

 
I think you implied that I had something to do with FoxPro's posting to this thread - actually you implied something a good bit cruder. I respect John. He and I have a long history of public interaction, much of it pretty hostile, but I think that interplay has done a lot for our own understanding and the general understanding of the important concepts at work here. Still, the idea that he would do anything I asked him to is laughable.
The underlying theme here is lack of understanding. NG's a wad, everyone knows that. The only thing left is the entrainment, so let's rock this bad mother. Like I told audioholic, you can seek the truth, but in the end who the **** cares if the actual parties involved are over it.

Oh and gold spray paint with the glitter is out, baby. What you want is lemony Pledge! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
I was seriously about to ask if no one caught the pokes Ant made at Don in his "apologetic" speech. Good thing Don posted.

Theres so much about Don's post and his goal in this industry that I agree with and think everyone's goal should be as wel. If you make a good product to be better in its purpose and is cost effective for the customer, industry enthusiast, then you truly are helping the industry.

What I get from Ant's way of business is money in his pocket is the only priority, which I guess some people would rather that be their agenda. However, from what I get from Don' goals is to better his hobby and better our interests. Making it less costly and for us to truly learn and know how to do dampening the right way.

This would really help against the conception other hobbyists think about the car audio enthusiast. "No other enthusiast is more misinformed than the car audio enthusiast"

 
I'm still just disturbed I didn't win any free scat from SS. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif

That being said, I hope SS falls on its face.

 
You are mistaking people with axes to grind with people who are willing to do my bidding. In several of the threads that have now disappeared I asked people to knock it off. It made no difference and some told me it had nothing to do with me. Believe it or not, but I have never asked anyone to jump on one of these threads. They are pointless and masturbatory - nothing to do with why and how people use these products. Talk about how to approach a problem or the general concepts involved, but talking about issues from years ago is just gossipy entertainment.
I think you implied that I had something to do with FoxPro's posting to this thread - actually you implied something a good bit cruder. I respect John. He and I have a long history of public interaction, much of it pretty hostile, but I think that interplay has done a lot for our own understanding and the general understanding of the important concepts at work here. Still, the idea that he would do anything I asked him to is laughable.
No no no. I don't think you asked anyone here at all. You and I are essentially in 100% agreement, especially on the bolded part.

As far as implying anything to do with FoxPro, that is not the case at all. Maybe it was read the wrong way, but I didn't intend it to mean any type of business interest of otherwise relationshop between the two of you concerning this thread.

nG

 
No no no. I don't think you asked anyone here at all. You and I are essentially in 100% agreement, especially on the bolded part.
As far as implying anything to do with FoxPro, that is not the case at all. Maybe it was read the wrong way, but I didn't intend it to mean any type of business interest of otherwise relationshop between the two of you concerning this thread.

nG
Gotcha.

 
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/popcorn.gif.32dd9e22fd77e77bc3c907062768fcd2.gif

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Why? Why do you care in the first place? Sorry, I'm missing your motivation. Are you a mediator by trade and this is practice for you or what? You spend an awful lot of time doing this. Guess I'm totally at a loss or you're a saint.....meh....whatev......
And PM convos? This is getting weird, dude.

Again, Ant an myself have history, but we don't exchange PM's. I busted him on my forum "snooping", never said word to him via PM and he's still has an account. Why you're personally communicating to him if you're not involved is odd.

Sure, he's made some poor decisions and has tried to say his side of the story. I'm no angel, either. Fine, call it deuce. I'm not holding anything against the guy, just have lost a lot of respect for his professionalism and business ethics. And he probably could care less what I think at this point, so....

But keep up the truth-seeker bit, man. I doubt you'll find it, but if it's like your life's mission, I ain't gonna stop ya. You go girl.
Since you asked, Ant PM'd me to start the discussion. Should I have ignored him? Frankly foxpro, Im rather shocked at your turn-about in attitude towards me all the sudden. Were you only being nice when you felt I was beating to your same drum? Of all the people for you to turn your anger on, I cant believe you are choosing me, for trying to find a resolution here. Im disappointed in you, to say the least.
 
Since you asked, Ant PM'd me to start the discussion. Should I have ignored him? Frankly foxpro, Im rather shocked at your turn-about in attitude towards me all the sudden. Were you only being nice when you felt I was beating to your same drum? Of all the people for you to turn your anger on, I cant believe you are choosing me, for trying to find a resolution here. Im disappointed in you, to say the least.
I think you have an OCD for the truth. Everything in this world is a half-truth at most.

 
Since you asked, Ant PM'd me to start the discussion. Should I have ignored him? Frankly foxpro, Im rather shocked at your turn-about in attitude towards me all the sudden. Were you only being nice when you felt I was beating to your same drum? Of all the people for you to turn your anger on, I cant believe you are choosing me, for trying to find a resolution here. Im disappointed in you, to say the least.
Sure, why not. It's in Ant's best interest to make buddies with you because of the disdain you've noted in many of your posts, so it makes sense. Ant knows where to find me, but doesn't try to contact me even when I call him out as a fVcking *** in this forum, or his own.

Not being "nice?" Anger? What? I told you, I don't get it and don't understand your motivation. If he personally did something to you, then I understand, but you're not drawing from the source of the information, only what you see written.

I'm not angry, man. I'm just kind of weirded out by how much you've put into this. It's the internets man, their ain't no justice, no truth, no fairness. Ant is Ant, you don't have to try to heal the guy and find solace in the situation. If you REALLY do...deep down in your heart, then again, by all means.....

Nowthen, black foil on CLD mat is the shiznit. I really dig it. I'm going to damp the cold air returns in my home with it, cause if a future homeowner decides to tear out the ceiling for some reason, I want them to think that I was some really groovy dude that really knew his CLD mat. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 
PArt 2 of 2
At this time, Don and I had gone back and forth a couple of times about advertising on DIYMA, and how I would like to handle the situation. We both recognized some what of a conflict but as the owner of the site, it was up to me to make the decision as to how I would proceed.

Eventually I had decided that it was in the best interest of Second Skin for me to ask him to remove the link from his Signature. At the time, he had an anchor link in his sig that pointed to his site, which is a permission granted only to DIYMA vendors on our site. Since Don was not a paying vendor, and I had not presented him with the option, I felt it was best if he removed this link.

Well, he did remove the link, but not the words. So now, his sig had the name of his company, but lacked the ability to click it and get to his site.

I let this go for a few weeks or so, maybe longer, and again, reluctantly asked that he removed the signature completely.

He did, removed it, but he replaced it with something that I thought was a direct insult to me. Something to the effect of “I’d like to tell you that I work in the sound deadening industry, but DIYMA won’t let me”. I took this as a sideways jab and again asked him to remove it. Now, after talking to him about it see where he was coming from. His point to me is that it was important to not hide behind screen names and be more forthcoming about our affiliations with the industry. Better that the members know that someone with a vested interest if offering advice. The more out in the open we are about our affiliations the better for the forum and the industry. But when he replace the link with the words that I saw as insulting me directly, I think I either asked him to remove it, or removed it myself. I think we did this dance for 2 or 3 sigs, but I can’t recall exactly.

Yes, yes. This was what caused you to come clean about the direction you were taking diyma, to become an SS forum. Of all the companies and links in various members' signature, you chose to single out Rudy. It was then where your intentions of turning diyma into SSma became evident.

So at this same time there were like, 2 or 3 members that saw the aftermath, and had no clue that we had been going back and forth, as far back as 6 or 7 weeks earlier. They saw that I snipped Dons sig and got pissed about it. A couple of them decided to be dramatic and add his site to their user signature in defiance of my wishes and decision. It is my thought that their line of thinking was something to the tune of, “ANT can tell Don to remove his sig, but I don’t work for Don so there is nothing ANT can do to me!”. That was my impression, especially since it was coming from a couple people that had been known to be very vocal about me and my DIYMA history. I asked these few guys to please stop trying to stir the pot, and get under my skin (something that is quite easy to do as they well know) and just let it blow over. I explained that this was a DIYMA issues, between me and Don and it was a business decision.

Whatever went back and forth shouldn't have mattered since you mislead everyone to believe that they were on a non-bias forum, where members should be able to support companies they favor.... or simply what's right or wrong. Again, the snipping of sigs further exposed your deceiving ways.

Well, these 2 or 3 guys kept up with the pot stirring and kept promoting dons site in their signature over the next few hours. I continually had to ask them to change their sigs because it they were obviously trying to be dramatic and start trouble. Each time they changed their sigs, it was with some sort of link to his site or a personal attack on me.

So I changed the sigs myself, and caught hell for that.

After about 3 go-arounds I banned one of the members for a week or so. Maybe I banned two members, but I think I only banned one at that time).

The next thing that happened is that some of these guys brought back old threads from years ago where I said I would not turn the forum in to a Second Skin site. Many were upset at the signature ordeal and started posting all kinds of drama, including calling me Hitler and the like. So I went through all of these threads that were getting bumped for the sole intention of causing drama, and cleaned them up. Personal attacks were deleted, one or two threads were locked, A couple of threads were deleted, and in one single case there was a legitimate reply posted by 89grand that I mistakenly deleted, thinking that it was part of the pot stirring antics that other members were contributing to.

Soon as I realized this, I sent him a PM with an apology asking him to repost it.

From there, the drama carried over to this forum where several upset members started in on the insults. They brought up these old topics that were long addressed and in my eyes, amended. But still hurt feeling, resentment and lost trust stings, so still the personal attacks and insults continue.

Indeed you went on thread/post deleting spree, but you failed to mentioned the type of content that weren't attacks on you or 'pot stirring.' Some of those thread that were deleted were just asking for justification on what was going on with the mayhem you were causing with the deleting/censoring, hence the hitler comments.

Then there were threads that reviewed SDS products that were altered by you with links to SDS removed. That review thread was started by the infamous Tspence, which was only started because I persuaded him to via the shoutbox, simply to test you (Tspence had no idea //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif). All of this was before you came out with the truth of "diyma=SSma"

oh.. then there's the altering of build logs. A build log that didn't even consist of SDS products, but of another company, was altered because it showed the ~25% technique. I read about it from a post made a whopping 2 months ago.

Of course, you'd like everyone to believe your sugarcoated stories and explanations and that your shady actions were long ago. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/greedy.gif.5a53e6246569d7ab79867170f3b06629.gif $$$$=the reason and explanation behind everything you post.
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
Are you realizing what you're saying here, at all? If he's purchased ad space on this website in an effort to drive business to his, then he's clearly NOT an avg member/hobbyist/enthusiast. If JoeShmoe, who has nothing to gain, starts a thread about a new product offering and Ant posts in that thread, I don't see anything wrong with that (within limitation, of course). But Second Skin Rep, the business owner and propietor of Second Skin Audio posting a truly altruistic "hey, check out this new stuff" thread? LOL, yea right. He cannot play "hey I'm your buddy" when in reality he's tied up in an AD/AV position. It IS complete bullshit and he's been doing it for years.
But, alas, this ca.com so I don't expect much at all for proper code of conduct and rule enforcement. Just wanted to point out your lack of understanding. You're a FANtasgreat mod, keep it up. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif
Second Skin REP

 
Yes, yes. This was what caused you to come clean about the direction you were taking diyma, to become an SS forum. Of all the companies and links in various members' signature, you chose to single out Rudy. It was then where your intentions of turning diyma into SSma became evident.

Actually james, The reason why I asked him to remove his sig was because not asking him was to show him favoritism. I had already had other members that were company affiliates to remove their sig. I held off for so long on asking Don to remove his becuase I thought it would look bad, which it did. I should have done it sooner, just like I did with every other vendor. It was wrong for me to let it continue for so long.

Whatever went back and forth shouldn't have mattered since you mislead everyone to believe that they were on a non-bias forum, where members should be able to support companies they favor.... or simply what's right or wrong. Again, the snipping of sigs further exposed your deceiving ways.
Changing ones mind and lying are two different issues. As time went on, things changed and I decided to move in a different direction, trying to recoupe the investment money I had sunk in to DIYMA.

I changed my mind. Simple as that. There was no lie.

Indeed you went on thread/post deleting spree, but you failed to mentioned the type of content that weren't attacks on you or 'pot stirring.' Some of those thread that were deleted were just asking for justification on what was going on with the mayhem you were causing with the deleting/censoring, hence the hitler comments.
True. I went on a rampage and one thread was delted that had TONS of personal attacks. Rather than sifting through them, I simple deleted thread. Guilty as charged.

oh.. then there's the altering of build logs. A build log that didn't even consist of SDS products, but of another company, was altered because it showed the ~25% technique. I read about it from a post made a whopping 2 months ago.
Nope. Never happend. Just a rumor that you chose to buy in to, 2 months ago.

I have been completely honest in this thread. I have nothing to hide, yet you continue with your same (expected and predictable) antics.

I am sure you will continue, but I for one am done with entertaining these types of replies.

Your mind has been made up, and I respect that.

ANT

 
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