Leftovers from the Second Skin drama...

[Upgrayedd 10+ year member]

If you think that is spam, then sundown also spams. You going to talk shit about them too?

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

I know ant paid to advertise on the front page of ca.com, but does that also grant him the freedom to spam the forum section? If so, then kudos to him. Some clarification would be appreciated.

Yes, call it spam if you wish.

He simply posted an update about a new product, and nothing about explicitly soliciting sales.

If you want to call posting updates about something new SPAM, then the entire forum is spam, including your and everyone elses buildlogs, pic threads, or review threads.

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nG

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I think you guys are getting carried away. I agree Id like Anthony to explain why my comments only held a grain of truth, as even his explanation to me via PM that I made it sound like these allegations are in the present tense rather than past deeds, did not justify his wording. But he either will, or wont, come answer the questions that permeate these threads. If he is willing to leave the allegations unanswered, or leave his wording as is, at least I already stated my comments were only those on subjects he admitted were true previously. Wording is not the big issue here.

 

[nineball 10+ year member]

 

[James Bang 5,000+ posts]

Yes, call it spam if you wish.
He simply posted an update about a new product, and nothing about explicitly soliciting sales.

If you want to call posting updates about something new SPAM, then the entire forum is spam, including your and everyone elses buildlogs, pic threads, or review threads.

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nG

Why do you think a company would post about new updates on products available for SALE?

DAMPLIFIER BLACK NOW AVAILABLE!.

Availalbe for what? Free?

With your logic, a ca.com moderator's logic, it should then be okay for any car audio company to start threads here to "simply" post updates about new products.

 

[Anthony Collova 10+ year member]

Part 1 of 2

The reason I try to stay out of these conversations is that without fail, they will turn in to an emotional mud slinging fest. In a previous ca.c (locked or deleted) thread, I opened my self up to criticism, and welcomed questions for some of the members that have issue with me, and my history. All I asked is that the conversation remained respectful on each side. I answered questions, one after another. Many of which were answered several times by myself. Eventually, emotions got involved, name calling, and more disrespect and verbal abuse followed. Posting of my military history, of the sale of my business and other immature antics lead me to realize that some were just not interested in knowing the answers to my questions, but were more set on exposing me in whatever light they would do me the most harm.

Some in this very thread already said they do not care what my side of the story is.

These members already have their mind made up, and while I do understand some of their frustrations, I do not understand the perpetual personal attacks and stalking of me on the forum. This behavior not only hurts me, but also makes them look immature as well.

The grain of truth comment I made was over the top, but mostly I was concerned with the way informatin was presented. In many posts people are lead to beleive that I still use the misery ban on fans of SDS, and delete SDS threads and build logs. Neither are true.

Anyone reading this, and other threads are lead only to believe what the loudest voice has to say. Since I tend to get drowned out with personal attacks, I find it best not to engage anyone when it comes to questions of my history. My lack of response is often touted as an acknowledgment of guilt rather than a defensive maneuver to cut the bleeding off before it gets worse. So in this reply I hope to make a few things very clear.

I have made mistakes, and don’t deny that, nor do I deny the following:

-That I put a misery ban on some of the more vocal and interrupting members of DIYMA (about 2 years ago) More info on the misery ban can be found here: http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=121886

By accident I also put an entire user group on misery ban for a few days. So many people were affected. Not just the people that I considered trouble makers. Looking back, I should have just passed out infractions once I realized that working out our differences through communications would not work, but I chose to go the route of the misery ban. Poor choice on my part for several reasons.

- That I used the Read PM hack to extract URL’s from the private message logs in an attempt to get more data on where our members were going and being referred to. The plan was to find this info out, and potentially advertise on the site that they were most interested in. Again, poor choice on my part. The data mining project stopped shortly after one of the DIYMA seniors called me out on it. It seemed harmless at the time until I listened to the reasoning of the members. To me it was a business move, to them it was an invasion of privacy and an act of mistrust. I got the point and stopped with the campaign. I now use Google Analytics to track as much info as we can, without interfering with the privacy of our members.

-Turning DIYMA in to a Second Skin site. This one is loaded, but I will do my best here to answer to this concern. When I bought the site from NPDang, my intention was to own my very own forum. I really had not clearly defined, or figured out what I was going to do with it, I was just excited to own a popular forum that I could improve. I really enjoy making things better no matter what it is. Products, forums, audio, baking (yes, I bake, in the kitchen and make killer homemade bread). No matter what it is, I always like to mess with things and try to improve upon the existing designs. Like Spectrum, Sludge and our bed liner. I am always changing things, researching, learning trying to improve. Owning a forum kind of seems like a fun venture. I had seen many members complain about slow load times, and lack of updates on the forum. Seemed like an easy fix. I also got tons of suggestions on how to improve the site from many members. I believe all the suggestions for mods and hacks were added, but many complained about these changes. Some offered other suggestions, some just complained. I did my best to accommodate everyone but eventually, the complaining got old, I got emotional and complaints turned in to personal attacks. I over reacted (misery ban) and caught hell for it. Eventually I apologized to the guys in the forum and it seemed to blow over, but not without the consequences of me losing trust from members.

At this point I had about $15k of my own money sunk in to the site, and would eventually spend another $12k or so to get things to the level they are at now. This included the mods, the hacks, skins and the failed home page that never really lived up to what I had hoped, and soon took down. Some other expenses include the KDA unit along with the initial purchase price of the forum from NPDang.

As a business owner I needed to recoup that money and it seemed like the easiest way was to charge for ad space. Then while I was on another forum I saw and method that they used to bring in some revenue. They charged members to upgrade their account permission. No permissions were taken away, but members that paid to upgrade got extra bonus permissions. I added this feature and caught hell for it but continued anyway.

Since I own Second Skin, it seemed like the most logical way to help recoup some of my lost investment was to advertise the shit out of Second Skin, which I did, and still do.

I can’t honestly say that it brings me much profit since the Google analytics reports show that I don’t get many conversions from the banner ads, but I am certain that it helps with the brand recognition, which in the long run will lead to more sales.

-SDS

A lot of emphasis has been made about how I restrict Don from contributing on the forum. How I won’t allow him to advertise, How I delete sds threads and prevent members from posting sds in their sigs. Most of this perception comes from a 3 day period, and was very isolated.

Before I get started on this, let me preface it by saying that I am not not trying to bash, or criticize Don in any way. I am merely laying out the facts as I remember them. If I any part of this is wrong, Don and ONLY don can correct me, as he is the only person that can verify his part & perspective on the situation

When Don decided to come out with his line of sound deadening materials I was both shocked and relieved. On the one hand I had been anxiously awaiting his newest testing results, confident that we would fair pretty well. When he launched his site, I was infact hurt, and emotional about it. Going from a state of hoping, and almost expecting to see Second Skin at the top of his updated list, to a point of seeing him open up shop was truly a 180 degree switch.

On the other hand I new that his site was generating a good deal of traffic for us, and Prior to this, I had worried about what would happen if he had decided to take the site down, or if we did not fair as well as we had hoped. I knew this would effect business to some degree, but I had no idea how much. Google Analytics could only tell me so much. The rest was pure speculation on my part. Fear mostly.

So when he did open up shop, it gave me a better understanding of that fear. I got to see exactly how much traffic was generated from his site, and what kind of traffic loss I would see. IT was some what of a relief to know exactly where I stood on my own accord, not relying on anyone else for my income or profitability. Now that his site was no longer sending me referrals and potential customers, I was 100% on my own. This was scary and exciting all at the same time.

 

[Anthony Collova 10+ year member]

PArt 2 of 2

At this time, Don and I had gone back and forth a couple of times about advertising on DIYMA, and how I would like to handle the situation. We both recognized some what of a conflict but as the owner of the site, it was up to me to make the decision as to how I would proceed.

Eventually I had decided that it was in the best interest of Second Skin for me to ask him to remove the link from his Signature. At the time, he had an anchor link in his sig that pointed to his site, which is a permission granted only to DIYMA vendors on our site. Since Don was not a paying vendor, and I had not presented him with the option, I felt it was best if he removed this link.

Well, he did remove the link, but not the words. So now, his sig had the name of his company, but lacked the ability to click it and get to his site.

I let this go for a few weeks or so, maybe longer, and again, reluctantly asked that he removed the signature completely.

He did, removed it, but he replaced it with something that I thought was a direct insult to me. Something to the effect of “I’d like to tell you that I work in the sound deadening industry, but DIYMA won’t let me”. I took this as a sideways jab and again asked him to remove it. Now, after talking to him about it see where he was coming from. His point to me is that it was important to not hide behind screen names and be more forthcoming about our affiliations with the industry. Better that the members know that someone with a vested interest if offering advice. The more out in the open we are about our affiliations the better for the forum and the industry. But when he replace the link with the words that I saw as insulting me directly, I think I either asked him to remove it, or removed it myself. I think we did this dance for 2 or 3 sigs, but I can’t recall exactly.

So at this same time there were like, 2 or 3 members that saw the aftermath, and had no clue that we had been going back and forth, as far back as 6 or 7 weeks earlier. They saw that I snipped Dons sig and got pissed about it. A couple of them decided to be dramatic and add his site to their user signature in defiance of my wishes and decision. It is my thought that their line of thinking was something to the tune of, “ANT can tell Don to remove his sig, but I don’t work for Don so there is nothing ANT can do to me!”. That was my impression, especially since it was coming from a couple people that had been known to be very vocal about me and my DIYMA history. I asked these few guys to please stop trying to stir the pot, and get under my skin (something that is quite easy to do as they well know) and just let it blow over. I explained that this was a DIYMA issues, between me and Don and it was a business decision.

Well, these 2 or 3 guys kept up with the pot stirring and kept promoting dons site in their signature over the next few hours. I continually had to ask them to change their sigs because it they were obviously trying to be dramatic and start trouble. Each time they changed their sigs, it was with some sort of link to his site or a personal attack on me.

So I changed the sigs myself, and caught hell for that.

After about 3 go-arounds I banned one of the members for a week or so. Maybe I banned two members, but I think I only banned one at that time).

The next thing that happened is that some of these guys brought back old threads from years ago where I said I would not turn the forum in to a Second Skin site. Many were upset at the signature ordeal and started posting all kinds of drama, including calling me Hitler and the like. So I went through all of these threads that were getting bumped for the sole intention of causing drama, and cleaned them up. Personal attacks were deleted, one or two threads were locked, A couple of threads were deleted, and in one single case there was a legitimate reply posted by 89grand that I mistakenly deleted, thinking that it was part of the pot stirring antics that other members were contributing to.

Soon as I realized this, I sent him a PM with an apology asking him to repost it.

From there, the drama carried over to this forum where several upset members started in on the insults. They brought up these old topics that were long addressed and in my eyes, amended. But still hurt feeling, resentment and lost trust stings, so still the personal attacks and insults continue.

SDS – CLD Tile rip off

This one I catch a lot of hell for too.

Don came out with a product that is awesome. All of his testing lead him to the conclusion that many in the industry have known for years. Stronger foil + higher rubber content = better vibration damping.

When Don came out with the CLD tiles, I felt threatened. This was an awesome product that has a fierce marketing campaign. The 25% idea is very effective for its intended purpose and an easy to understand approach to noise treatment. The tiles are strong, effective and profitable. Just because I hold a slightly different view point of the 25% idea does not mean that I do not agree with Dons approach. Mine is not all that different from Don’s. I feel that 25% is the least you should do for a constraint layer damper, to reduce the harmonics in the sheet metal. The point of diminishing returns does kick in around 25-30% but that does not mean that the returns stop. I just means that the returns start costing more the higher you get. While 100% and 200% coverage is certainly overkill for most applications, there are some applications where 50%-80% are acceptable, especially when dealing with the insane amounts of energy that some of the SPL competitors place up on the sheet metal of their cars. Dons program works very well for its intended audience, but to apply the idea to every single person, in every single car and assume that they all have the same exact goals is asking too much from any one product. I am sure that I will catch hell for my stance from some of the more vocal forum members, but perhaps this is where we will simply not agree.

As far as me claiming that I invented the tiles method, this is untrue. I can not make this claim, and neither can anyone that has been in the sound deadening industry for anything less that about 20 years.

I have said this before, and many use it against me. I can see why some would think I implied that but I was not the one that created these things based on what I have said online, but really, all I did was leave out the finer details.

These patches were presented to me by my adhesive manufacture a couple of years ago. They had some left over material from another vendor that was very similar to our product only the patches were smaller than our sheets, and the foil was thicker. I got samples, and tested them out. These worked well, but I wanted to increase the adhesive thickness and try to get to a certain weight. We went back and forth with different butyl formulations a couple of times, and eventually I decided against taking their extra inventory, or going in the direction of the custom product. I can not speaker for Don, so I do not now if he sourced these on his own, or reinvented them, or was simply offered them from his vendor. He very well may have found a custom formulator and brought in the thick foil himself and started from scratch. That is a pretty good possibility. I honestly don’t know, or care, but what I do care about is having the best product in the industry. Second Skin has always had a reputation for being the best so as the owner of the company I had to react to the change in the market. I don’t expect everyone to understand or agree with my decision to come out with the SPL Tiles, but for me, it makes sense. The market changed, and unless I changed with it, unless I adapted to the competition I run the risk of losing out on a share of the market that I certainly enjoy owning, but obviously don’t enjoy sharing.

It was a business move that I made, and stand by.

The idea that I am greedy is decently true, but so might be any business owner that is out to turn a profit. The idea is to grow, not to shrink. If I did not want a better financial life for myself I would not have opened up shop. I would simply work for someone else, but that is not not an option fo rme. I am not college educated and not all that good at following direction. My options are limited, so it is best that I do what I know how to do.

When customers call, I give them my utmost attentiona nd go over a game plan for their car that makes sense to them, and to me according to their goals and budget. I often tell people that I am happy to sell them whatever they want, but alwasy steer peopll away from buying the wrong product for their applications.

Without a doubt I would do some things differently. I obviously made some bad decisions, and hold myself accountable for those.

The things I have brought up in this thread are all the major things I feel need to be addressed. Any other issues that that question my integrity, my character or my industry knowledge are not going to be addressed. I have said my peace and am not interested in defending my actions or my stance on the issues I have laid out above.

If anyone wishes to quote me line by line and rebut my account with quotes or links or accusations, I certainly expect that. Please do not expect me to go back and forth in this thread answering questions or offer explanations. All the explanations I want to give have been given. Many of the things I have done are in poor taste and are outright wrong. Diving in to my psyche to analyze anything beyond what I am comfortable talking about is pointless. I was wrong on several accountsaccept fault where it is due.

I hope that this is enough for some of my haters, fans, and new members that have no idea about why there is so much drama on this forum, around me and Second Skin over the last few months.

Thanks for reading

ANT

 

[DBFan 10+ year member]

lol, James is still on the SS hating spree i see.

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

With your logic, a ca.com moderator's logic, it should then be okay for any car audio company to start threads here to "simply" post updates about new products.

And... most do. To boot, they aren't even paid advertiser's here.

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nG

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

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I'll just sit and wait.

nG

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

You say spam, yet he is a PAYING ADVERTISER here. An approved sponsor by the owner/admin Chris Inman. My personal opinion is besides the point, but he pays to be here.

Are you realizing what you're saying here, at all? If he's purchased ad space on this website in an effort to drive business to his, then he's clearly NOT an avg member/hobbyist/enthusiast. If JoeShmoe, who has nothing to gain, starts a thread about a new product offering and Ant posts in that thread, I don't see anything wrong with that (within limitation, of course). But Second Skin Rep, the business owner and propietor of Second Skin Audio posting a truly altruistic "hey, check out this new stuff" thread? LOL, yea right. He cannot play "hey I'm your buddy" when in reality he's tied up in an AD/AV position. It IS complete bullshit and he's been doing it for years.

But, alas, this ca.com so I don't expect much at all for proper code of conduct and rule enforcement. Just wanted to point out your lack of understanding. You're a FANtasgreat mod, keep it up. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

Are you realizing what you're saying here, at all? If he's purchased ad space on this website in an effort to drive business to his, then he's clearly NOT an avg member/hobbyist/enthusiast. (1) If JoeShmoe, who has nothing to gain, starts a thread about a new product offering and Ant posts in that thread, I don't see anything wrong with that (within limitation, of course). But Second Skin Rep, the business owner and propietor of Second Skin Audio posting a truly altruistic "hey, check out this new stuff" thread? Like "hey I'm your buddy" (2) is complete bullshit and he's been doing it for years.
But, alas, this ca.com so I don't expect much at all for proper code of conduct and rule enforcement. Just wanted to point out your lack of understanding. You're a FANtasgreat mod, keep it up. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

Apparently you have a lack of understanding. Period.

Here's my post again:

You say spam, yet he is a PAYING ADVERTISER here. An approved sponsor by the owner/admin Chris Inman. My personal opinion is besides the point, but he pays to be here.
nG

Get it this time? Even if he wants to post a thread asking for people to buy his product, he can, see above.

(1) By your logic, all he need to do is ask for a member to post a thread on here, and it's ok. Many companies do this to sneak under the advertising rules, since guess what, they're not approved/paid advertisers according to the owner of this site. Hell, I've been asked to do this before numerous times. So, you're essentially ENCOURAGING him to be more deceptive. Then I'm sure you'll mention that the "JoeShmoe" user who posts the thread have stumbled upon it himself. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif Hopefully we'll have you around to pass judgment on that too, so we can tell whether it's really JoeShmoe, or the owner talking through him.

It is much more honest and up front for the actual owner of the company to do this himself. Why can he do this? Please don't tell me I have to spell this out for you again...

(2) Why is it complete bullshit? Oh please, please, please tell me why. Is it because you don't like it? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crying.gif.ec0ebefe590df0251476573bc49e46d8.gif If you don't like hearing/seeing the threads about new products or him posting, put him on your ignore list. Problem solved. I'll even let you know where that is, since you clearly have some comprehension problems. Here: http://www.caraudio.com/forum/profile.php?do=editlist

If I have any more trouble realizing what I'm saying, please let me know. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif kthnx.

nG

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

P.S.

SO glad your butt buddy called you in here to help support him. It's kinda cute. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cuddle.gif.bd1b29c179c0482f8313dbd790b74c94.gif

I'm sure you'll say you "stumbled" upon this thread all by your lonesome. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

nG

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

If nothing else, Anthony should be given credit for coming here to take his lumps and answer allegations. I told him if he did this, I would do my best to remain neutral. I think acknowledging he is trying to repair what he damaged along the way is doing exactly that. I dont agree with much of what he did that raised these allegations, but we all make mistakes. Give him the opportunity to make up for what he lost. IMO, he deserves that after coming here like he has. Knowing Don's integrity, Im confident he sees the situation similarly. There is room enough for both companies in the market, lets hope this is the start of a peaceful coexistance between them both in what turns out to be a beneficial time for them.

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

If nothing else, Anthony should be given credit for coming here to take his lumps and answer allegations. I told him if he did this, I would do my best to remain neutral. I think acknowledging he is trying to repair what he damaged along the way is doing exactly that. I dont agree with much of what he did that raised these allegations, but we all make mistakes. Give him the opportunity to make up for what he lost. IMO, he deserves that after coming here like he has. Knowing Don's integrity, Im confident he sees the situation similarly. There is room enough for both companies in the market, lets hope this is the start of a peaceful coexistance between them both in what turns out to be a beneficial time for them.

As am I. Now only if he'd politely suggest the same attitude to his lemmings.

nG