Just clearing a few "myths"

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by vasyachkin chris, i dare you to take a 100watt rated tweeter, a 30watt rms amp, use a pure sinewave tone (anywhere between 5khz and 20khz) and deliver it into the tweeter on maximum gain. the tweeter will not last more than one minute.

 

i did not make the 5% number up, i cant find that study now but it was all well documented.

thing is I'd USE a tweeter rated for 100W for the test----not a 5w---- what your saying is ---- bass is only 70-80% of the music power ---so a 1000W sub is REALLY only 700-800W sub----- putting aside the fact that ALOT of audio co print false specs for their speakers---- a speaker tested to take 100w ---will ---no matter if it is clipped OR clean. if the specs are CORRECT then they represent the THERMAL LIMIT of the coil. which has nothing to even do with music at all. But like I had said before the specs have to be correct. yea 100W is lot of heat going into a little tweeter BUT if the rating are correct then it will take it-------- no problem

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

Originally posted by vasyachkin you ASSUMED that a tweeter normally sees a considerable portion of system power - this is not the case. a tweeter crossed at about 4khz normally sees about FIVE PERCENT of full-range power. that is if you put 100 watt clean power into the system the tweeter will get 5 watts average. this tweeter if rated 100watts can in reality only handle 5 watts, cuz that is all it needs to handle. now you clip a 20 watt amp into it hard and it now sees more, lets say 10 watts - it dies.

 

you are not believing me, and the reason is that a tweeter sounds just as loud as woofer, but this is a psychoacoustic effects. most music energy is in fact in midbass and bass, but it APPEARS that energy is more or less evenly spread out.

 

just to be politically correct, short-term transients in treble do reach high levels, perhaps 10-20% of total power, but those are too short to overheat the tweeter voice coil usually.

the problem i see here about the tweeter issue is your talking about coaxial speakers....everyone here was talking about either componets actuall tweeters or subs...not coaxials

 

[MikeofTulsa Moderator]

Originally posted by vasyachkin chris, i dare you to take a 100watt rated tweeter, a 30watt rms amp, use a pure sinewave tone (anywhere between 5khz and 20khz) and deliver it into the tweeter on maximum gain. the tweeter will not last more than one minute.

 

i did not make the 5% number up, i cant find that study now but it was all well documented.

i have a question about this....how can an amp w/ the gain all the way up produce a pure sine wave...if im not mistaken it does not send a perfect sine wave....

 

[vasyachkin 10+ year member]

its just a matter of custom for tweeters to rate power this way.

for computer monitors for example you write that a 17" viewable monitor is 19" because 19" is the size of the glass tube inside it, but for lcd monitor 17" viewable is still rated as 17" -- retarded but thats how it is and thats how it will be.

some (very few) high end home tweeter manufacturers actually list the thermal power too, i will give you the links see for yourself.

http://www.orcadesign.com/companys%20products/focaldrivers/audiom%20td5.html#

this tweeter is rated 15watt nominal, 150watt maximum. this is a $500 dollar each tweeter, thats right, one of the most expensive and also best tweeters in the world. 15 watts is only 10% of 150 watts and you now know why. by the way this tweeter is marketed as both home and car audio model.

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by vasyachkin its just a matter of custom for tweeters to rate power this way.

 

for computer monitors for example you write that a 17" viewable monitor is 19" because 19" is the size of the glass tube inside it, but for lcd monitor 17" viewable is still rated as 17" -- retarded but thats how it is and thats how it will be.

 

some (very few) high end home tweeter manufacturers actually list the thermal power too, i will give you the links see for yourself.

 

http://www.orcadesign.com/companys%20products/focaldrivers/audiom%20td5.html#

 

this tweeter is rated 15watt nominal, 150watt maximum. this is a $500 dollar each tweeter, thats right, one of the most expensive and also best tweeters in the world. 15 watts is only 10% of 150 watts and you now know why. by the way this tweeter is marketed as both home and car audio model.

the wattage is always a thermal rating---some just give both RMS and peakthis has nothing to do with what precentage of power trebble is in the total signal---------it just that this tweeter can take 15w as long as you want BUT take 150W for short bursts cause in a short burst 150W heats the same amout as 15W nominally. it is the same as a 50A fuse will blow at a steady 55A but take 200A for a spilt sec

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

what are we arguing about anymore -------that a 100W tweeter is really 5W or a clipping 100W amp kills 5W tweeters OR both. think about this ---------if I turn up my trebble will i blow my tweeters[more power] if I run a clipped signal into my amp will this blow my tweeter--- how about clipped software like heavy metal. I'm almost lost as to what we are debating------ that tweeters aren't rated correctly or clipping kills them

 

[vasyachkin 10+ year member]

what i am arguing is, that tweeters are not rated for continuous sinewave input, they are rated for a "typical" program full-range material passed through an appropriate crossover. if a tweeter is rated 100 watt it means you can use it in a properly designed 100 watt 2-way with an unclipped MUSIC signal. but it can NOT just handle a 100 watt rms sinewave input. most probably it can not even handle 20watt of such input.

and the consequence of this is, if you want to use a 100 watt 2-way, and sometimes use it at the full 100 watt power, you will be safer with a 150 watt amp because even if you clip your amp for a short time your tweeter might be gone.

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by vasyachkin what i am arguing is, that tweeters are not rated for continuous sinewave input, they are rated for a "typical" program full-range material passed through an appropriate crossover. if a tweeter is rated 100 watt it means you can use it in a properly designed 100 watt 2-way with an unclipped MUSIC signal. but it can NOT just handle a 100 watt rms sinewave input. most probably it can not even handle 20watt of such input.

 

and the consequence of this is, if you want to use a 100 watt 2-way, and sometimes use it at the full 100 watt power, you will be safer with a 150 watt amp because even if you clip your amp for a short time your tweeter might be gone.

clean power blows speakers just as fast as clipped power. MORE clean power will just blow them FASTER-------and what about clipped software like heavymetal you think it blows tweeters too????

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by vasyachkin what i am arguing is, that tweeters are not rated for continuous sinewave input, they are rated for a "typical" program full-range material passed through an appropriate crossover. if a tweeter is rated 100 watt it means you can use it in a properly designed 100 watt 2-way with an unclipped MUSIC signal. but it can NOT just handle a 100 watt rms sinewave input. most probably it can not even handle 20watt of such input.

 

and the consequence of this is, if you want to use a 100 watt 2-way, and sometimes use it at the full 100 watt power, you will be safer with a 150 watt amp because even if you clip your amp for a short time your tweeter might be gone.

Not too many people out there driving along listening to sine waves //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[bean 10+ year member]

reading this post has made my brain hurt. Chris, just stop......... He doesn't get it.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

to end this tread lets just make it known that most people clip their amps on PURPOSE. I do ---proaudio people do----people who compete do--- WE have to---- because of the nature of MUSIC. Normal music has an average crest factor of 10dB. if you really are that worried about clipping and set your amp for a 1/1 input gain setting. then on a music track with 10dB crest factor you'd only be putting out 10W average in a 100W amp that is a waste. most people run a 3/1 meaning if the HU puts out 9v rms you'd set the amp for 3v -------hows that for clipping. ALL musical peaks will be clipped

 

[bean 10+ year member]

One of the things that's been repeated in this thread is how long everyone's been doing this car audio gig. I know my bio says I've got very few posts and that I'm a junior member but I've been doing this for about 12 years. I'll be the first to admit you have the opportunity to learn something every single day. But holy ****, Chris' last post really knocked my dick in the dirt (I have no idea what he's talking about, you've probably noticed sometimes he gets really technical //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif ) I can't even imagine what some of the newbies are going through so I have some advice for them............ Turn off your computer rent a movie like Dude where's my car, or Spaceballs go to the kitchen and pour yourself a glass of milk. Watch the movie and dumb yourself down a bit.

Chris, I'm only kidding. You've got my respect and I know your knowledge is widely respected on this forum.

 

[chris229 10+ year member]

Originally posted by bean One of the things that's been repeated in this thread is how long everyone's been doing this car audio gig. I know my bio says I've got very few posts and that I'm a junior member but I've been doing this for about 12 years. I'll be the first to admit you have the opportunity to learn something every single day. But holy ****, Chris' last post really knocked my dick in the dirt (I have no idea what he's talking about, you've probably noticed sometimes he gets really technical //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif ) I can't even imagine what some of the newbies are going through so I have some advice for them............ Turn off your computer rent a movie like Dude where's my car, or Spaceballs go to the kitchen and pour yourself a glass of milk. Watch the movie and dumb yourself down a bit.

 

Chris, I'm only kidding. You've got my respect and I know your knowledge is widely respected on this forum.

check out http://www.carsound.com you'll learn the same stuff just searching around the site---The A2TB[Autosound2000 Thech Briefs] 700+ pages tech book and the alternator whine book dave navone sells is really good. http://www.davenavone.com or get single briefs at http://www.autosound2000.com

 

[bean 10+ year member]

Thanks chris. Actually I've had a few discussions with Mr. Navone. Also guys like Mark Fakuda (rockford fosgate) and Brian Schmidt (formerly of rockford). Gregg Cobbs (former SPLworld record holder) is a buddy of mine. These guys are some of the most brilliant car stereo dudes on the planet. However, if there is a simple answer for something, these guys will give it to you. My challenge with this forum (and the reason I read a lot more than I write) is that too many people give answers that are way, way too technical for most of the kids that read this stuff. For hell's sake there's just a handful of people on this site that even know what the crest factor is. This thread got started because some clown wanted to boast how smart he is. Turned out he was wrong. Being flat out wrong is one thing. We don't want to polute those who are trying to learn this stuff. But talking way, way over some one's head is in my opinion just as bad.

I think a forum like this is to help some of these people learn about car audio. There is an old saying "There is no learning with out pain". Holy **** is this thread painful.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

 

[bean 10+ year member]

How long until I'm no longer a "Junior member"