It's war time...

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Savant Exactly.. We want easier access to Iraqi oil and a better foot in the Middle East (the start of that Middle East occupation thingy?).. Yeah, that has exactly SHIT to do with Saddam.. we aren't there to 'help' the Iraqi people, we are there to remove Saddam so we can move forward with other plans.. another example of how this is an unjust war.. it's about bettering the US on the global position, not about humanitarian efforts..

You keep repeating this, so let me ask you a question, if(when) we remove Saddam from power, will the Iraqi people benefit from this? Disregard whatever is on Bush's personal agenda, and answer that question. Yes or no will do. No explanation needed after that(although I know you will give one).

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by snova031 You keep repeating this, so let me ask you a question, if(when) we remove Saddam from power, will the Iraqi people benefit from this? Disregard whatever is on Bush's personal agenda, and answer that question. Yes or no will do. No explanation needed after that(although I know you will give one).

yes

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

Savant sees the light again.

Now that we are about a week into it let's review.

01-Illegal Scud missile use confirmed. Don't start with it was was only 2 or 200. ANY even in possession is a violation.

02-Illegal Al Samoud missile use confirmed. Let's see Saddamite Hussinsein is still destroying those...BY TRYING TO KILL PEOPLE WITH THEM!

03-Chemical weapons plant confirmed. Don't start as to whether it is in use for the last 5 years or not. It's existence is one violation. It's use another. It's not being disclosed another.

04-Murdering POW's. Violation.

05-Murdering his own troops. Violation.

06-Murdering his own citizens. Violation.

07-Setting the oilfields abaze (again). Violation.

08-Destroying infrastructure. Violation.

09-Hiding weapons in cemetaries. Violation.

10-Hiding weapons in hospitals. Violation.

11-Hiding weapons in schools.Violation.

12-Using soldiers dressed aas citizens. Violation.

13-Hiding chem weapon suits and atropene (the antidote for VX nerve gas) in a hospital. Not a violation probably but a de facto confession of the possession of VX nerve gas and intent to use as the US has signed a non first use agreement and has never used gas nor violated a weapons treaty.

14-Saddam insanely attempting to destroy his country rather than allow it to breath free.

15-Iraqi citizens in open revolt against their overlords.

16-Saddam cutting off water to his citizens.

17-Saddam cutting off food to his citizens.

There sure enough is a whole lot of deploring and violating a going on over there. And lots of a justfying proof too.

PEACE

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW Uhhhh...no. But I am realistic enough to know that there are some jobs which are going to be farmed out of country because performing them is of less value than our minimum wage dictates. Now reing a REALIST as opposed to an absolutist I see the lesser of 2 evils being that sub minimum wage jobs if they must be sent out of country be sent to areas friendly to us as opposed to those sworn to our destruction.

Hmm.. so we don't have those jobs in friendly places at the moment, our enemies do that? NO.. you said 'cheaper than now'.. which translates to BIGGER profits for the people owning those companies, and I promise you will NOT see the cost come down.. Do I think it's reasonable (realistic) to have Nike charge $100+ for shoes that they paid $4 a pair to make? no, but you apparently do since the job of making shoes is a "sub minimum wage job".. Not sure how that is since American business owners are making tons of money on that distinct lack of job for americans.. Just because big business owners don't want to cut into their profits doesn't mean it couldn't be a minimum wage job and the system still work.. it just means the CEOs wouldn't be able to have a $10,000,000/yr bonus.. waaaaaaaa.. waaaaaaaaa.. Worldcom (whom I work for) is in the middle of bankruptcy and trying to fix thier leaking boat, but still manage to give millions in bonuses to the board members??? but, I'm sure you support that.. they work soooooo hard //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

Exactly more twisted flatulence. OCCUPATION MEANS TAKING AND KEEPING! Liberation means freeing from tyranny. This is part of a big picture. As President Musharraf said the first step in stopping global terrorism is to "drain the swamp" in which they breed. This is a step in that. As was the Afghan war. It also helps free the Iraqi people. It also removes a dung beetle from power. It also helps guarantee the free flow of oil on which we depend. It also sees to it that the Iraqi people are BETTERED. MORE than 1 reason to do something does not ameliorate any of the reasons.

Now you are flipflopping.. I mentioned the 10 year OCCUPATION PLAN to someone, and you piped up with something like "and we occupied Japan and Germany".. which means you know we are going to OCCUPY Iraq. Now you are saying we are LIBERATING, which is NOT OCCUPYING.. only, WE WILL OCCUPY Iraq.. for about 10 years, at least that was the last I heard about the plan.. Pick a stance.. quit saying what ever makes you look better at the time.. I, unlike you, don't waiver on what I say..

Yeah. I see all the people in Basrah are rioting because we did in Saddam's thugs. Last time I checked we had a long line of people wanting IN the USA and none wanting out. Not that it matters to the hate America group but the Iraqi AND Afghan governments were both illegitimate. Both seized power and were both puppets of foreign masters upon inception. Neither gave a rat's anus about the will of the people. When you have a cogent argument olease return.

Funny how you take ONE example (this being the CURRENT war where we are 'liberating' the citizens from a total psycho) and try to apply it to the OTHER 4+ billion people of the world.. Again, Most of the people against the US are against us because they don't value what we do the way we do (not that most Americans even know what they value.. that being greed and arrogance and wastefullness)..

Ummm...please refer to the following R-E-A-L-I-T-Y. REALITY. Good for you. Good for me. REALITY:

You keep saying that.. over and over and over.. yet, you almost NEVER manage to actually support it.. I suppose though, if you say it enough then you might get people to actually believe you are speaking to 'reality' when you aren't.. back to the schoolyard argument mentality you have..

This is in response to my mentioning that the final resolution, 1441, didn't mention a disarmement date, just a document, inspection start, and report date (30, 45, and 60 respectively).. to which you posted even LESS than the first time, and it STILL doesn't have a disarm deadline.. Here are the 3 things they insist on..

" 1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 , in particular through Iraq’s failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687;

2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 and subsequent resolutions of the Council;

3. Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;"

NO DATE/TIMELINE for diarming.. which leads to...

By your comment I can only come to 2 conclusions:

 

1-You can't read the English languare.

 

2-THEY WAS A WHOLE LOT OF DEPLORING GOING ON FOR SOMEONE IN COMPLIANCE!

 

peace

the only reasonable conclusion is, as I have stated time and again, you have no reading comprehension ability.. there is no timeline listed in what you posted (no, I didn't read the link) for a disarm deadline, just documents from Iraq, inspections starting, and udates..

This is getting sooooooo tired.. you keep saying I can't support what I say and say you have 'proof' of things, you offer no proof to support your 'facts'.. I'm saying things that (in certian contexts) don't require (in fact, can't be proved, only disproved) proof, yet you keep crying about my lack of proof.. I say we have no proof of WOMD, you say prove we have no proof //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif You say we have proof of Chem weapons, I say where is the proof, you offer none (because you can't, there isn't any 'yet')..

One day you might actually be able to say something of substance.. till then I'll just sit here and laugh at you.. Go ahead and keep trying to belittle me and make personal attacks to try and make your bullshit statements true, it just isn't gonna happen..

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82209,00.html

In stunning news even ex pres Clinton supports Bush and the war effort.

PEACE

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW Savant sees the light again.

 

Now that we are about a week into it let's review.

 

01-Illegal Scud missile use confirmed. Don't start with it was was only 2 or 200. ANY even in possession is a violation.

If you ask me, 2 SCUD missles isn't worth ONE human life, let alone dozens of American Soldier lives.. Had we continued with inspections, we might have well found both (or hundreds, what ever.. we know of 2 so far that I'm aware of) of them.. and had them destroyed.. Apparently you would rather have Americans killed to find them though.. Not me..

02-Illegal Al Samoud missile use confirmed. Let's see Saddamite Hussinsein is still destroying those...BY TRYING TO KILL PEOPLE WITH THEM!

moron.. yes, he's using them.. he had 30 we knew about that were BEING DESTROYED when Bush said fuk off.. I'd stop reducing my arsenl too.. And, yes.. use them to try and kill those attacking me.. Totally pathetic you keep bringing this point up..

03-Chemical weapons plant confirmed. Don't start as to whether it is in use for the last 5 years or not. It's existence is one violation. It's use another. It's not being disclosed another.

I'm not even gonna bother trying to find information on that.. you have said from the getgo that it's a chem WEAPON plant, but all reports I've heard (granted, I've been ill for 2 days and not watched TV or the news) is that it's a CHEMICAL plant, has NOTHING to do with weapons.. A chem plant is NOT in violation.. sorry..

04-Murdering POW's. Violation.

 

05-Murdering his own troops. Violation.

 

06-Murdering his own citizens. Violation.

 

07-Setting the oilfields abaze (again). Violation.

 

08-Destroying infrastructure. Violation.

 

09-Hiding weapons in cemetaries. Violation.

 

10-Hiding weapons in hospitals. Violation.

 

11-Hiding weapons in schools.Violation.

 

12-Using soldiers dressed aas citizens. Violation.

LOL.. not in violation of the UN resolutions.. sorry.. in violation of the Geneva Convention, sure.. but since we all know he's a terrible person this is ALL MOOT.. Again, you show you have nothing useful to add so you bring in tons of side and irrelavant bullshit.. items 4 - 12 do nothing but support that Saddam is a shitty human, but we all know that already.. that does NOT justify the war, it's something that anyone with a 1/2 ounce of intelligence would have susspected BEFORE going to war with this guy.. the FACT that our government is 'supprised' by this SHOWS they are stupid and didn't even think about how this would go down.. You really think you are gonna tell a leader of a sovereign country you are gonna come in and kill him and expect him to play nice? STUPID.. that's all I can say..

13-Hiding chem weapon suits and atropene (the antidote for VX nerve gas) in a hospital. Not a violation probably but a de facto confession of the possession of VX nerve gas and intent to use as the US has signed a non first use agreement and has never used gas nor violated a weapons treaty.

Except, ALL US troops get atropene before ALL conflicts.. it's standard practice.. and I'd bet ALL hospitals in the US have atropine on hand.. why? PREPARED... does that mean we expect to have nerge agents used inside the US? no, but we are being prepared.. Jumping to the conclusion that it's a 'de facto confession' of any guilt is.. well, right in keeping with your fukked way of thinking I guess.. We know he USED to have things around that would require such things to be on supply.. Granted, he isn't supposed to have a 'direct' need for them now based on the resolutions, and one might argue he should have destroyed the chem suits and atropine when he (if he actually did) got rid of his Chem Weaps, but one does not mandate the other (having atropine does not mandate having chem weapons).. again, not something I suspect you can understand in your limited view of 'truth'..

14-Saddam insanely attempting to destroy his country rather than allow it to breath free.

Um, cause he's crazy maybe? your point??

15-Iraqi citizens in open revolt against their overlords.

So? we are working on the premise that, in general, the Iraqi people want Saddam out too.. what's your point? other than you like hearing yourself talk?

16-Saddam cutting off water to his citizens.

 

17-Saddam cutting off food to his citizens.

SO? HE'S NUTS AND HORRID.. what's your point now?? Oh, yeah, you like hearing yourself talk..

There sure enough is a whole lot of deploring and violating a going on over there. And lots of a justfying proof too.

 

PEACE

Again, there is NO justification of war at this point (since we as a nation have watched millions of people die under nasty leaders before and never picked a fight, nor did we care to help the Iraqi people get 'liberated' in the last 12 years).. Yes, the general Iraqi population will be happy when Saddam is dead.. Yes, Saddam is a horrid creature.. Yes he has resorted to the nastiest of behaviors now that he has been put in a corner.. Does that mean the US had a JUSTIFIED REASON to START a war? nope.. sorry.. We went to war before offering one last 'proper' chance for dillhole to 'disarm'.. we couldn't care less about disarming him, we want a US sympathetic gov in there so we get oil (you said 'free flow of oil' and a foothold in the Middle East.. All the rest is noise to hide that fact..

But, I don't expect you to be able to see that.. or if you do, you certianly won't admit it..

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

and I promise you will NOT see the cost come down..

And I promise you are clueless. Remember $500 VCR's made in Japan. Now $39 made in China. The Nike thing is correct but more attributable to yuppyism than anything. Besides that this is a free market system. Each company will have the same chance to lower costs and yes each will at first try to keep pprofits higher. Then someone will try for more market share via lower price. Customers will flock to them. Others will follow suit or die. You benefit from living in a free market capitalist economy and then act as if it is wrong. If other countries followed our lead instead of govt planned economies they would eventually reap the benefits that we now enjoy. Nations which have followed our lead did. Nations which we LIBERATED and taught capitalism and democracy to did. There is no reason to believe that this would be different.

I mentioned the 10 year OCCUPATION PLAN to someone, and you piped up with something like "and we occupied Japan and Germany"..

Or something like until a stable democracy was in place and we turned the govt back to the people. Talk about misquoting.

Funny how you take ONE example (this being the CURRENT war where we are 'liberating' the citizens from a total psycho) and try to apply it to the OTHER 4+ billion people of the world.. Again, Most of the people against the US are against us because they don't value what we do the way we do

Again clueless. Most govts despise us because our way of life is their ruin if it spreads to their little fiefdom. ANY tin horn Hitler wannabe can get masses in the streets to chant "DEATH TO AMERICA" with a rifle in their back. The protests go away as soon as the pinhead dictator goes away. MILLIONS of people attemt or do immigrate to the US every year and BILLIONS would if they could.

If you feel you are incarcerated here and oppressed I will pay for your emmigration expenses. Again it's my heart of gold coming through.

PEACE

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82209,00.html

 

In stunning news even ex pres Clinton supports Bush and the war effort.

 

PEACE

LOL so?

who cares what Clinton thinks? or any 'one' person? Supporting the US is one thing, supporting Bush is one thing, supporting the Troops is one thing.. they are not all tied together despite what most dim-witted people would think..

Bush -> not supported by me

US -> the greatest place in the world to live despite her leaders being shitheads and her population slipping into oblivion and letting her slowly become tainted with moronicism and apathy

Troops -> FULLY SUPPORTED, they have almost no choice but to be there..

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

.. A chem plant is NOT in violation.. sorry..

Sorry but even an undisclosed dual use facility is a violation. R-E-A-L-I-T-Y. Good for you. Good for me. REALITY!

in violation of the Geneva Convention, sure.. but since we all know he's a terrible person this is ALL MOOT..

Ummm...the murder of Americans is never moot to me dude.

If you ask me,

Ummm...they didn't.

.. items 4 - 12 do nothing but support that Saddam is a shitty human, but we all know that already.. that does NOT justify the war, it's something that anyone with a 1/2 ounce of intelligence would have susspected BEFORE going to war with this guy.. the FACT that our government is 'supprised' by this SHOWS they are stupid and didn't even think about how this would go down..

Ummm...sorry but most of this was even below Hitler.

PEACE

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW And I promise you are clueless. Remember $500 VCR's made in Japan. Now $39 made in China. The Nike thing is correct but more attributable to yuppyism than anything. Besides that this is a free market system. Each company will have the same chance to lower costs and yes each will at first try to keep pprofits higher. Then someone will try for more market share via lower price. Customers will flock to them. Others will follow suit or die. You benefit from living in a free market capitalist economy and then act as if it is wrong. If other countries followed our lead instead of govt planned economies they would eventually reap the benefits that we now enjoy. Nations which have followed our lead did. Nations which we LIBERATED and taught capitalism and democracy to did. There is no reason to believe that this would be different.

actually, most times prices aren't dropping because of cheaper labor, it's because technological breakthroughs greatly reduce the cost of creating parts.. VCRs are cheaper because they are made in 'China' instead of 'Japan', they are cheaper because the techonology inside of them is cheaper to make..

Or something like until a stable democracy was in place and we turned the govt back to the people. Talk about misquoting.

No, not misquoting at ALL.. You said 'occupy' is different than 'liberate', yet you admit we 'take and keep' until we get a government in that WE want, then leave.. and if they revert, their problem.. Here, this is what you said..

This isn't even fair game any more. We occupied Japan and Germany also...and instituted Democracies. Once a Government was stable we stopped running it and ALLOWED free elections. If they wanted to return to a miserable existence they could. They didn't.

OCCUPATION MEANS TAKING AND KEEPING! Liberation means freeing from tyranny

so, which is it? can we 'occupy' without 'permanatly' keeping? We will OCCUPY Iraq once this is done.. and once we get things set up for OUR OIL SUPPLIES

It also helps guarantee the free flow of oil on which we depend.

we will leave.. You say we are NOT there for oil, yet say we are? and you say I'm clueless..

Again clueless. Most govts despise us because our way of life is their ruin if it spreads to their little fiefdom. ANY tin horn Hitler wannabe can get masses in the streets to chant "DEATH TO AMERICA" with a rifle in their back. The protests go away as soon as the pinhead dictator goes away. MILLIONS of people attemt or do immigrate to the US every year and BILLIONS would if they could.

So you are saying you are fully in belief that the ENTIRE world WANTS to be just like America.. and Hitler was sure the world would benefit from being under his rule.. the difference? None if you ask me..

You and I both know that we aren't actually going to better them enough to be 'like america'.. the leaders will still be corrupt and the general population will still be living like 3rd world people.. the only difference is the US will have an easier means to exploit those people for "less than minimum wage jobs"..

If you feel you are incarcerated here and oppressed I will pay for your emmigration expenses. Again it's my heart of gold coming through.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif again with the redneck mentality of "if ya don't like my country, get da fuk out".. *applause* you once again show your ability stay on topic have a reasonable debate.. congratulations.. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW Sorry but even an undisclosed dual use facility is a violation. R-E-A-L-I-T-Y. Good for you. Good for me. REALITY!

If there is NO proof of chem weapon production, then it is NOT dual use (actually, I thought everything, all means of all production, not just chem, needed to be 'disclosed' but..). And, I'm pretty sure low-level flyovers would have found it DURNING PROPER INSPECTIONS, at which time we could have checked it out and/or destroyed it (only if it was geared up for chem weapons though, as I have stated time and again that they process crude oil and need chemicals for that)..

Ummm...the murder of Americans is never moot to me dude.

Again, TOTALLY out of context, hell, you took that out of a totally different paragraph.. How sad you still won't adhere to common standards of debate..

And, the 'murder of American troops' can only happen since we sent them in. Had we not started a war, he wouldn't have troops to murder.. you followin' what I'm sayin? had we made a bit more effort to be thurough up front and set down one final resolution with everything spelled out, we might well have had a LOT more international support, and our troops might not be being capture because they are being stretched so thin (even some of the 'war experts' say we don't have enough troops there, another example of how poorly this was planned out)..

Ummm...sorry but most of this was even below Hitler.

So? Hitler was also moving across all of Europe.. Saddam is sitting in his little sandbox.. Why does everyone find it pertinant to bring Hitler into this? We all know Saddam is horrific.. Stop bringing in irrelavant points..

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Let's try snova's approach..

Yes or No.. do you agree to all these points.

A) Saddam is a horrid person

B) The Iraqi People will be 'happy' for Saddam to be removed from power and his government replaced

C) We will place a temporary government in Iraq until a US sympathetic government can be properly established (we will 'occupy' Iraq until a gov is in place)

D) We will get oil benefits from any government that is put in place in Iraq

E) we will have a foot hold in the Middle East bettering the possibilty of Pax America (us ideals spread across all the world)

F) Saddam was involved in a plot to assainate Bush - I, Bush - II's daddy

G) there has not yet been 'proof' of WOMD (SCUDs are not WOMD, they are illegal missles) or Chem weapons or Bio weapons

H) Bush gave the following 'reasons' for going after Saddam : Disarming, Sept 11 connections, Disarming, then liberation.

I) Saddam was destroying Al Samoud - II missles at the time Bush said he was invading Iraq no matter what

EDIT:

J) we had the chance to remove Saddam in 91 but left him in power

K) we supported Saddam when he was fighting Iran

~EDIT

I tried to keep these points as close to what has been established time and again in the tons of posts.. As a one lump answer, yes or no.. these are all agreed upon statements..

I say yes..

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

http://msnbc.com/news/890988_asp.htm

Interesting read. Not much worse than stealing a man's drawers so you can sneak up and shoot him.

PEACE

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Savant Let's try snova's approach..

 

Yes or No.. do you agree to all these points.

 

 

A) Saddam is a horrid person

 

B) The Iraqi People will be 'happy' for Saddam to be removed from power and his government replaced

 

C) We will place a temporary government in Iraq until a US sympathetic government can be properly established (we will 'occupy' Iraq until a gov is in place)

 

D) We will get oil benefits from any government that is put in place in Iraq

 

E) we will have a foot hold in the Middle East bettering the possibilty of Pax America (us ideals spread across all the world)

 

F) Saddam was involved in a plot to assainate Bush - I, Bush - II's daddy

 

G) there has not yet been 'proof' of WOMD (SCUDs are not WOMD, they are illegal missles) or Chem weapons or Bio weapons

 

H) Bush gave the following 'reasons' for going after Saddam : Disarming, Sept 11 connections, Disarming, then liberation.

 

I) Saddam was destroying Al Samoud - II missles at the time Bush said he was invading Iraq no matter what

 

EDIT:

J) we had the chance to remove Saddam in 91 but left him in power

 

K) we supported Saddam when he was fighting Iran

 

~EDIT

 

I tried to keep these points as close to what has been established time and again in the tons of posts.. As a one lump answer, yes or no.. these are all agreed upon statements..

 

I say yes..

A)Yes

B)Yes

C)What 'temporary government'? I think we will help set up their future government, but nothing 'temporary'.

D)Yes

E)US ideals? I don't think so. But we will try to maximize our gains from the Middle East.

F)Yes

G)Yes

H)I think the top 2 he has said are 'disarming' and 'liberation'.

I)Saddam was given an altamadum(sp?). He didn't comply, we went in. We should have done something a long time ago, however.

J)Yes

K)Yes

Sorry I couldn't give a one lump answer...but some questions I needed to answer independantly.

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

A,B,C,D,E,F,H,I,J = YES.

G = NO. THE PROOF IS OVERWHELMING. FWIW the UN considers 1 scud to be 1 scud too many and after 45 days from the 1991 ceasefire 1 scud = resumption of hostilities untill the boy understands no means no.

K = We supported BOTH sides to some degree. If one has 2 evil enemies is it not better to assist them in killing each other than to fight 2 wars?

PEACE