IMHO GOD > Evolution

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

nothing eternal makes sense. And there has to be something eternal as matter cannot be created nor destroyed //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

nothing eternal makes sense. And there has to be something eternal as matter cannot be created nor destroyed //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Not quite true Chad -- the laws of conservation of matter and energy are for four dimensional time-space as we know it. They apply here, yes. They do not apply to the Universe in the "beginning" state before the time and spatial dimensions emerged.

 

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

rather large abstract thought you have there. I still think there has to be something eternal, just me tho.

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

rather large abstract thought you have there. I still think there has to be something eternal, just me tho.

You would need to define eternal... if you mean that something existed as long as time, then yes, that is an accurate statement. But time was not around "forever" per-se, and I know that doesn't make any sense as forever is defined in time. Language doesn't allow for use to describe that state as our minds can't comprehend it -- we understand 4D time-space, and thats it.

But time is a dimension, no different than the 3 spatial dimensions in any way but the way we observe it. It too was "created" along with space from whatever it was that "made it happen" so to speak.

The point is... it's too complicated for us to even think about, much less decide what is right.

 

[lilmaniac2 5,000+ posts]

i concur

 

[duece212 5,000+ posts]

The point is... it's too complicated for us to even think about, much less decide what is right.

Probably the most straight up statement in the whole thread and a good one to end on. Oh but what fun it was //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

There you go still using time-domain language... still under the assumption that cause and effect applies when no time and space exist at all. You can't say the universe "formed" -- it didn't, not in time or space.
Calling anything the "creator" still implies time-domain... saying he "existed" implies a space domain. Saying the "creator" has free will also implies time-domain... there was a time before and after the creator "willed" something. No action takes place without time, not an action that we could ever begin to understand.

No wonder I lost interest in this thread //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif It hasn't went anywhere in... well... alot of pages.

My point? You need to just admit that you can't understand it and that God existing is no more likely than the universe "coming" from nothing. We cannot possibly understand it either way. I'm okay with the fact that you believe God "made" the Universe -- you have to believe something. But don't give yourself the illusion that it makes ANY sense logically.

no no no see we ARE in the confines of time and space

which means in order for our existance it is NECCESSARY for something to have caused us...

let me put it a different way...

everything in our word (bound by time) must have a cause, this theory is called infinite regress... which if it is true, it means the existance of the universe is impossible within the boundaries of time...

the ONLY possible way for the universe to exist is for the CAUSE of the universe (which we must have {being in time}) to not be in time...

you understand yet?

THE ONLY possibility for the beginning of the process of time is a cause (or creator) outside the bounds of time....

we know there has to be an ultimate cause, because reguardless, WE ARE IN TIME

this cause must be a force eternal, with no physical dimenion or displacement in time... HE must exist in this manner described for the formation of the universe to be possible...

if there was NOTHING before space and time then how could something (much less the universe and time) come of nothing? i know i know... terms of time....

but your are missing the point....

WE ARE IN TIME which means we MUST by the laws of the universe have a cause which is outside the dimenions of time and space, because if the cause were not then it too would need a cause, but being eternal eliminated the possibility of a cause (there is no time, therefore there is no time when he doesn't exist)

i see only 2 options...

there is nothing outside of time and space, from which EVERYTHING came

or

there is an existance outside of time and space from which EVERYTHING came

and since science will tell you nothing can come from nothing... i believe the latter..

the universe could simply not possibly come from no cause it makes no sence... the only logical explanation is that the cause is eternal (requireing no creator)

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

I stopped reading after you said "cause outside the bounds of time" -- think about why you are wrong for a minute //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

cot,

Just so you know, I think it's okay that you believe that God did all this. You have to believe something, I won't tell you "God doesn't exist" because I can't prove it.

It's not okay, though, for you to think you can actually grasp and explain anything other than 4 dimensional time-space, which is what you are TRYING to do. It just won't happen. Our brains can't think outside of 4D... thats why none of our words can describe it and why this is going nowhere //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

My only beef is the attempt at proof. If you want to say "I believe in God because I choose to" -- that is perfectly okay. It's just a technicality really.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

I stopped reading after you said "cause outside the bounds of time" -- think about why you are wrong for a minute //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

no continue reading it does make sence, why do you think a being outside of time can't influence the beginning of time?

granted the question "if an eternal force influenced the creation of time then how did it manifest in a single point of time?" is un-understandable... i'll never know that but the paralell universe theory seems to fit nicely...

but i think its fairly obvious to say that a being seperate from time and space has the ability to influence the creation of time and space as long as that influence doesn't change himself (because change is impossible outside of time)

furthermore how can nothing infulence the beginning of time? that seems to be the most illogical statement of them all

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

think of this eternal being as a standard... his existance eternally is the only thing that makes our existance possible without him there is no us, it's kinda like a theory of opposites for white to exist there must be black... for evil to exist there must be good... for a non-eternal being to exist, there must be an eternal being...

and yes that goes vicea versa... if i didn't exist than (to me) nothing (including an eternal being) would exsist...

the entire premise of this theory however is subjective... but if he existed to no one subjectively, then does he really exist in the first place? at this point with no points of reference HIS existance is subjective... hmmmm

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

you own sundown?//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

 

[kballa422 10+ year member]

cot,
Just so you know, I think it's okay that you believe that God did all this. You have to believe something, I won't tell you "God doesn't exist" because I can't prove it.

It's not okay, though, for you to think you can actually grasp and explain anything other than 4 dimensional time-space, which is what you are TRYING to do. It just won't happen. Our brains can't think outside of 4D... thats why none of our words can describe it and why this is going nowhere //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

My only beef is the attempt at proof. If you want to say "I believe in God because I choose to" -- that is perfectly okay. It's just a technicality really.

At first reading your posts I thought you maybe believed in God but now Im not sure, either way its not my business really, but I agree with everything you have said.

The bottom line is people who believe in God cannot prove there is a God. That is why it is called faith, which someone posted the definition as believing in something that cannot be proved. Trying to prove their is a God through logic and whatnot really is pointless. But then again trying to use science to disprove God is easily as pointless, its just something that cannot be disproven or proven.

Here is my take on it and my belief....

I believe in God, I am a Christian. Do I question my faith sometimes? Yes. Main reason being I cannot grasp all the concept associated with it, but I dont think we were intented to. Like Sundownz has been saying, its something our brains can't handle. HOWEVER...

I have experienced things in my life that make me KNOW there is a God. Things I cant explain, emotions and feelings that just aren't natural. I hardly ever cry, and I've never cried because I was happy, except for 2 times and both were through an experience I had with God. You can call me stupid and a girl or whatever, or society has molded me that way, but there is no way that I could feel that way and explain some of the things I've experienced if there were no God. Thats just my opinion and my personal experience.

I'm not going to judge anyone, I'm not going to act like I have all the answers, and I'm not going to push my beliefs onto anyone (especially over the internet).

Well, there's my take on it. That is all, peace!

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

At first reading your posts I thought you maybe believed in God but now Im not sure, either way its not my business really, but I agree with everything you have said.
The bottom line is people who believe in God cannot prove there is a God. That is why it is called faith, which someone posted the definition as believing in something that cannot be proved. Trying to prove their is a God through logic and whatnot really is pointless. But then again trying to use science to disprove God is easily as pointless, its just something that cannot be disproven or proven.

Here is my take on it and my belief....

I believe in God, I am a Christian. Do I question my faith sometimes? Yes. Main reason being I cannot grasp all the concept associated with it, but I dont think we were intented to. Like Sundownz has been saying, its something our brains can't handle. HOWEVER...

I have experienced things in my life that make me KNOW there is a God. Things I cant explain, emotions and feelings that just aren't natural. I hardly ever cry, and I've never cried because I was happy, except for 2 times and both were through an experience I had with God. You can call me stupid and a girl or whatever, or society has molded me that way, but there is no way that I could feel that way and explain some of the things I've experienced if there were no God. Thats just my opinion and my personal experience.

I'm not going to judge anyone, I'm not going to act like I have all the answers, and I'm not going to push my beliefs onto anyone (especially over the internet).

Well, there's my take on it. That is all, peace!

exactly you can PROVE anything, but my logic lets me KNOW there is a god... granted i could be wrong but to the best of my understanding, there MUST be a god

 

[sundownz Pro Seller]

no continue reading it does make sence, why do you think a being outside of time can't influence the beginning of time?

Since you made an error already, I'll ignore the rest for now.

You said "beginning" of time as if there was a time when there was no time which is a contradiction, this is an error in your logic -- anything you say afterwards is based on a flawed premise and therefore is to be discarded.

You can't get anywhere with this, ever. It's been tried for thousands of years. Just for a little background -- I've studied Christianity, read the entire bible and studied the history of it, studied Eastern religions, other Western religions, own some of those texts, and have studied Philosophy heavily in College and almost decided to major in it -- I'm very familiar with almost every major argument for and against the existence of God posed for the last few thousand years.

And before you think I'm totally on the other side of the fence I wrote a research paper on why Bertrand Russel's, "Why I am not a Christian" is a heavily flawed position =) I haven't stated my position in the whole thread, and I'm still not going to -- thats not the point. The point is that trying to understand anything outside the bounds of 4D time-space is impossible for our brains. If you want to "believe" something outside of these bounds it will have to be nothing but faith, and faith alone -- logic is of no use to you whatsoever, so my technicality is that you don't try to give yourself the illusion that it does //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif