Well, I happened to be around back then, and yeah, the pyramid amps we bought wholesale for $30-$120. Installed a many of them. And I don't recall too many people breaking glass back then (when I say back then I mean early early 90's) maybe just a few. Please re-read my post, maybe you didn't read all of it. Todays amps that are 3KW and up really ARE 5KW and up of output, it's because the parts used are way better than the old parts... It's like you only skimmed my posts... Anyway, just thought I'd post some "real" info here for folks who have experienced amplifiers "back then" and "now" but have no idea what "makes them so....".
Clueless. You'll come around, they all do eventually. I know plenty of people who said the exact same things you did until they installed a quality class D amp and will NEVER go back to Class AB power hoggs, barely any power, amps...
Matter of fact I know of one such customer that had 4 US Amps VLX-400's, he borrowed a pair of Cactus PF 600.1's from a guy (a little amp by todays standards) and they blew away all four of his VLX-400's and he never went back to "old school" junk. You just got to buy the right stuff. Some of the modern class D stuff is just that, junk. But not all of it is, for certain. Don't knock it, until you have personally tried it...
Edit: wanted to add that, this guy in particular, gave me the exact same argument when I told him the VLX-400's where not "all that" (similar to the old VI Colossus) and that he should at least TRY some newer amps, and he was like "no way".... He hadn't competed for YEARS, long time... since the 90's. He finally borrowed the PF 600.1's from a friend and not only did he call me and say he should have listened to me in the first place, he went up 2 whole dB in his SPL comp class.... That's quite a gain if you know anything about SPL.
BTW: I see your in Huntsville, not that far away. If you remain in doubt, let me know, I know of some locals out your way (Devin from Humble for one) who will change your mind about modern amplifiers, and SPL... I think he was street beating 30 second average 159.0 recently... He LOVES giving demos too. He's rebuilding his whole setup, with 6 SAZ-3500D's on 9 12's i think... He had 4 SAZ-3500D's on 4 18's in his Explorer.... He should "go up" a little as soon as the new build is completed. Also if you have any questions, call or PM me. I will "give you the real scoop" on todays "junk".
Alot of old amps are getting to the point even if working will need to have caps done not just Phoenix Gold and their leaking stuff but eventually they do dry out. I have owned several soundstreams that have had cap problems too along with Zed audio made amps and other old school "high end" gear.
I am an old school fan for sure but I know the new "high end" stuff is good too.. For me its all nastalgia and being in the sport in the 90's and able to afford this stuff back then and running it into the ground.. Today its all about finding it and sitting on it or flipping it for some coin.
Also I have noticed along the way that newer amps have a HELL of a lot better filtering system then yesterday's counter parts, not all but most.
I am in agreement with DB-r but I will never stop playing around or collecting old school gear. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
I am an old school fan for sure but I know the new "high end" stuff is good too.. For me its all nastalgia and being in the sport in the 90's and able to afford this stuff back then and running it into the ground.. Today its all about finding it and sitting on it or flipping it for some coin.
Also I have noticed along the way that newer amps have a HELL of a lot better filtering system then yesterday's counter parts, not all but most.
I am in agreement with DB-r but I will never stop playing around or collecting old school gear. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
I completely understand that. I have a collection of old school junk too. Though most of mine doesn't work, I could easily fix it. I just bartered for it with some customers who needed a new amp, didn't want to pay the large price of rebuilding their old amps to only get 1/3rd the performance of the newer stuff they could buy instead. Two of the best things in my old collection is the Orion 2250SX aka "the beast", and a really old (1986 model) VI Colossus. Also a little Punch 45, the original, ugly as hell, punch 45 that is so rare these days...
RAM_Designs
5,000+ posts
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db-r all up in this thread! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif
Since I "feel their pain" I try to help out the older guys who come here thinking about the old amps and junk... The CA world has definately changed since "back then"...
Where's that guy that spent all that money on those linear power amps and got burned so bad, he could talk some sense into the guy... I think he is "gunz4me" or something like that. Cool dude, will share his experience, with his misplaced "lust" for the old junk... It's a classic example.
Don't get me wrong, I like the old junk too, some it's alright I guess... But there is plenty of reasons to switch to the newer stuff. As long as you buy the right stuff anyway, some of the new junk is as bad as the pyramid junk back in the day... Though my PB700G (Pyramid 700 Gold) kicked all kinds of *** on my 2 15" kicker comps back in the day... That amp was huge, blew 2 alternators, and stuck out from under the seat of my truck... was a sweet $130 or so wholesale, like $300 retail. Would hang with a 2150 Orion if I remember right... But wouldn't touch the massive powerhouse Kenwood KAC-1021... or the 1020... Those were BEAST BRICKS!
Where's that guy that spent all that money on those linear power amps and got burned so bad, he could talk some sense into the guy... I think he is "gunz4me" or something like that. Cool dude, will share his experience, with his misplaced "lust" for the old junk... It's a classic example.
Don't get me wrong, I like the old junk too, some it's alright I guess... But there is plenty of reasons to switch to the newer stuff. As long as you buy the right stuff anyway, some of the new junk is as bad as the pyramid junk back in the day... Though my PB700G (Pyramid 700 Gold) kicked all kinds of *** on my 2 15" kicker comps back in the day... That amp was huge, blew 2 alternators, and stuck out from under the seat of my truck... was a sweet $130 or so wholesale, like $300 retail. Would hang with a 2150 Orion if I remember right... But wouldn't touch the massive powerhouse Kenwood KAC-1021... or the 1020... Those were BEAST BRICKS!
rc10mike
10+ year member
I b sippin on sizzurp
I never understood why someone would hoard a bunch a old car audio electronics.
People tend to think that these "old school" amps are much better. LOL. Thats like saying a Nintendo ES is better than a PS3...sure the the NES may work after 20 years, but whats the point?
People tend to think that these "old school" amps are much better. LOL. Thats like saying a Nintendo ES is better than a PS3...sure the the NES may work after 20 years, but whats the point?
It's the prices that throw them for a loop. Good amps back in the day costed $1000 for 300 watts. These days 300 watts can be had from a 6"x6" square Class D amp for $99 at bargain bin stores, and they don't get it how that is possible unless it's the "pyramid" type power ratings... You know the MAX POWER thing, that it will put out 3000 watts MAX when it says 2 x 150 watts RMS on the amp specs.
Also the fact that the old stuff was made in the USA DOES make it better quality, for it's "power output" size anyway. You won't find many modern 2 x 150 watt amps that are built as well as the old USA made stuff. HOWEVER, you will find some nicely built 3KW and up amps these days for $1,000's....
Also the fact that the old stuff was made in the USA DOES make it better quality, for it's "power output" size anyway. You won't find many modern 2 x 150 watt amps that are built as well as the old USA made stuff. HOWEVER, you will find some nicely built 3KW and up amps these days for $1,000's....
I have a newer Pyramid amp here, it's a "Artic" series. It says 2 x 50 watts RMS 1000 watts MAX... LOL
Inside it's actually exactly one HALF of a Sundown SAX-50.4.... So it's really just a 50 x 2 amp.... Only half as power as the smallest Sundown amp, the 50.4... But yet on the amp specs it says 1000 watts MAX POWER.
Inside it's actually exactly one HALF of a Sundown SAX-50.4.... So it's really just a 50 x 2 amp.... Only half as power as the smallest Sundown amp, the 50.4... But yet on the amp specs it says 1000 watts MAX POWER.
My only problem with DEI manufactured Orion amplifiers was that they were just not reliable. I owned a 4 channel amplifier in 2003 or so, and it made multiple trips back to DEI under warranty. I never had reliability issues like that with the SX and HCCA Digital Reference amplifiers that I ran back in the day, or even recently in my wife's old vehicle.
- Thread Starter
- #41
BINGO! In everything I have ever done, quality and performance costs. You could almost say back then that you rated your amps in dollars spent and it was a direct relation between that and SPL, at least with any SQ at all. Then years later you get told everything you learned gets turned upside down, it will take me a while to get there. To the others who may not understand this, think about if someone came up to you and said that the X in math, for example 2X3 was the symbol for subraction, not multiplication, and that all the math you learned in school was wrong. Now you will begin to see my issue. Many years and many many thousands of dollars went into what I leanred.
Maybe
All I can tell you is the class Ds I listened to had power, as long as you didn't care about SQ at all. I would at least like to be able to tell what instrument was making the noise, heh. I am sure times have changed but since I know A/Bs quite well I feel a whole lot more comfortable with them especially when I am more concerned today with SQ than SPL.Allan
For SQ, since I am not big into SQ, but I know a little about the amps insides... The design hasn't changed for Class AB amps, they are just way less expensive these days. The input, drive, and output stages of all AB amps these days is pretty much identical to the older amps. The difference in some may be the power supply. The only old amps that have a special power supply are the PPI PC2350, A1200, PCX2400. They have an extremely responsive power supply that you will not find in modern amplifiers, which may help with SQ, and BASS SQ as well. The reason the modern AB's are so cheap is just that they are made in Korea, China, etc, and the parts don't cost near as much as they used to, and the modern parts are far more powerful so it takes less parts to make the same power as the older amps.
If your an SQ guy, I suggest you find some other SQ people and ask them what they have had good luck with. I know one guy, some kind of SQ champion, he's here in Houston area, nice guy, he could probably tell you what will and won't work for SQ, as he's probably tried everything. There are companies that were around back then, that are still around, like Zapco, but I think their amps are similar to most other amps on the market, however they may have some key differences to help with SQ, but it's all trivial stuff if you ask me... Things like Burr-Brown op-amps etc, I can't tell any difference in the SQ personally... I can get you in touch with the SQ Champ guy if you want and he can help you weed through the piles of amps on the market without having to do that yourself, since he already has.
If your an SQ guy, I suggest you find some other SQ people and ask them what they have had good luck with. I know one guy, some kind of SQ champion, he's here in Houston area, nice guy, he could probably tell you what will and won't work for SQ, as he's probably tried everything. There are companies that were around back then, that are still around, like Zapco, but I think their amps are similar to most other amps on the market, however they may have some key differences to help with SQ, but it's all trivial stuff if you ask me... Things like Burr-Brown op-amps etc, I can't tell any difference in the SQ personally... I can get you in touch with the SQ Champ guy if you want and he can help you weed through the piles of amps on the market without having to do that yourself, since he already has.
- Thread Starter
- #43
First I just want to say I really appreciate you taking all the time to edumakate me on the new stuff
I guess I should use the term SQ loosely as I am not a nut about it. What I remember from the old days is you had three kinds of amps (and speakers for that matter). You had amps that sounded really really really good, amps that sounded fine and were pretty loud, and amps that were loud as heck but sounded like garbage. In my opinion PPI was in the first group near the bottom, Orion was in the second group near the top, Fosgate was in the second group near the bottom, etc just to give you a reference.
What I am wanting is something where PPI was, excellent sound but not necessarily that loud. Today, response, tightness of the hit and clarity far outweigh volume to me. The sub setup I currently have is a Kenwood KAC-529S 120x1 into a MTX Thunder 4000 12" in a sealed box. It has been running since 2001 or so and is pretty sloppy (although a vast improvement over the stock system in any car). I am looking towards getting something tighter and am right now favoring a Polk MM 10" SVC in a sealed box with a JL Audio JX250/1 amp. According to the specs it should hit just as low, be far more accurate with less distortion than what I have (and the amp is A/B!!!!). I also REALLY love the idea that the JX series amps have an optional remote that allows for full mute to full power adjustment from the front seat, since I listen to everything from dance to classical, from volcals to taiko, this will be a major improvement with just that one thing.
Anyway, looking for an amp and speaker to replace my setup is what drove me to look at the Orion site, and then to make this post. I am not sure I need a SQ Champion to help little ole me I do however apprecaite the offer very much!
Allan
I guess I should use the term SQ loosely as I am not a nut about it. What I remember from the old days is you had three kinds of amps (and speakers for that matter). You had amps that sounded really really really good, amps that sounded fine and were pretty loud, and amps that were loud as heck but sounded like garbage. In my opinion PPI was in the first group near the bottom, Orion was in the second group near the top, Fosgate was in the second group near the bottom, etc just to give you a reference.
What I am wanting is something where PPI was, excellent sound but not necessarily that loud. Today, response, tightness of the hit and clarity far outweigh volume to me. The sub setup I currently have is a Kenwood KAC-529S 120x1 into a MTX Thunder 4000 12" in a sealed box. It has been running since 2001 or so and is pretty sloppy (although a vast improvement over the stock system in any car). I am looking towards getting something tighter and am right now favoring a Polk MM 10" SVC in a sealed box with a JL Audio JX250/1 amp. According to the specs it should hit just as low, be far more accurate with less distortion than what I have (and the amp is A/B!!!!). I also REALLY love the idea that the JX series amps have an optional remote that allows for full mute to full power adjustment from the front seat, since I listen to everything from dance to classical, from volcals to taiko, this will be a major improvement with just that one thing.
Anyway, looking for an amp and speaker to replace my setup is what drove me to look at the Orion site, and then to make this post. I am not sure I need a SQ Champion to help little ole me
I do however apprecaite the offer very much!Allan
Keep in mind that voltage is what best controls subwoofers, not current. For bass, the higher you can go in impedance, and still get acceptable power will give you best control over the woofer. Using a lightweight woofer will yeild best results but you will need to avoid the cheap lightweight woofers with the cheap poly cones, etc. Though the price is tempting. I don't know anything about the modern Polk or JL stuff. In my experience none of the older stuff is what it used to be and the up and coming stuff (that you have never heard of before) is the better route to go, as they are trying to make a name so they are making good products still. The mega large companies just make junk these days because they are selling based off their name brand recognition, and they know and that's all they care, that their stuff sells...
I can get you in touch with the SQ guy and he can help you, he is kinda local to you (houston area) and he has an RTA at home and tons of experience and trophies and that would be your best bet... Even though I work on amps everyday, I don't design them, so I don't know everything about them, just what makes them work, not so much their "performance", especially in SQ, as I don't have a good SQ ear, and I don't have a Spectrum analyzer, etc, here. We can check for clean output on the scope (sine wave with/without clipping) and we can test for power output in Volts/Amps to get the output in watts and the impedance load at frequency but that's the extent of our work. We rebuild amps back to OEM spec. We don't "mod" amps here or anything like that. We just put it back the way it was and verify output is rated (on some amps, some are simply too large to verify, some amps on the market today are 20,000 watt amps) and check that it is clean and that all the filters and options function correctly.
Your welcome for the help, really, I know what it's like to be thrown back into Car Audio after the way things were in the late 80's early 90's... It can be hella confusing.
I can get you in touch with the SQ guy and he can help you, he is kinda local to you (houston area) and he has an RTA at home and tons of experience and trophies and that would be your best bet... Even though I work on amps everyday, I don't design them, so I don't know everything about them, just what makes them work, not so much their "performance", especially in SQ, as I don't have a good SQ ear, and I don't have a Spectrum analyzer, etc, here. We can check for clean output on the scope (sine wave with/without clipping) and we can test for power output in Volts/Amps to get the output in watts and the impedance load at frequency but that's the extent of our work. We rebuild amps back to OEM spec. We don't "mod" amps here or anything like that. We just put it back the way it was and verify output is rated (on some amps, some are simply too large to verify, some amps on the market today are 20,000 watt amps) and check that it is clean and that all the filters and options function correctly.
Your welcome for the help, really, I know what it's like to be thrown back into Car Audio after the way things were in the late 80's early 90's... It can be hella confusing.
Directed owns atleast Lanzar PPI and Orion
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