OK. Heres my advice.
Wait until wallmart sells the new infinity reference components. They will then drop in price. They are 2 ohm and have good SQ. Because of the low ohms, find a cheap 4 channel amp that puts out around 45watts RMS x 4 at 4ohm and it will give you the 90RMS at 2 ohm they need. This will save money on the amp.
Get yourself the biggest class D amplifier you can find for the subs, and keep in mind how many subs you want to run. Its cheaper to have a big-*** amp than an amp for each sub. As for number of subs, sometimes for the price of two subs, you can find a higher model equal in output as the two combined. If you go through the method of taking the money for two or more subs and investing in fewer, more powerfull subs, you cut down on your wieght and box size. Also since you have fewer subs, you can design a larger box with more low end output. I am a fan of sealed boxes for my metal because the fast drum roles sound tighter.
For a head unit, find one with a microphone and self tuning option if you want budget sound quality without all the external crossovers, equalizers, ect. Plus find a head unit with built in time alignment to put you in the center of the sound stage.
For wiring, start big and get 1/0 gauge, because it will save you from regreting the 4 gauge later on when you crave more power. Dont spend too much on speaker wiring, just make sure its a heavy enough gauge. For RCA's, skip all the expensive shielding and such, and just get some twisted pair from a name brand.
Do get yourself a capacitor, they have a much lower internal resistance than the battery and will be close to the amps so they dont have to draw power in quick bursts from 16 feet all the way to the battery. In my opinion, a cap is good for vehicle electronics because it smooths out voltage demands from the stereo system and I dont know how good an amp sending all these fluctuating demands is for the vehicle electric systems. Plus instead of your headlights flickering to the bass, they will just dim, and you will be less conspicuous to the cops than those people you see with their headlights doing the strobe effect.
Just my opinion, for everyone quick to jump in like a pack of wolves and debate everything I just said to all hell, just please spare me the rudeness and I will do the same.
Wait until wallmart sells the new infinity reference components. They will then drop in price. They are 2 ohm and have good SQ. Because of the low ohms, find a cheap 4 channel amp that puts out around 45watts RMS x 4 at 4ohm and it will give you the 90RMS at 2 ohm they need. This will save money on the amp.
Get yourself the biggest class D amplifier you can find for the subs, and keep in mind how many subs you want to run. Its cheaper to have a big-*** amp than an amp for each sub. As for number of subs, sometimes for the price of two subs, you can find a higher model equal in output as the two combined. If you go through the method of taking the money for two or more subs and investing in fewer, more powerfull subs, you cut down on your wieght and box size. Also since you have fewer subs, you can design a larger box with more low end output. I am a fan of sealed boxes for my metal because the fast drum roles sound tighter.
For a head unit, find one with a microphone and self tuning option if you want budget sound quality without all the external crossovers, equalizers, ect. Plus find a head unit with built in time alignment to put you in the center of the sound stage.
For wiring, start big and get 1/0 gauge, because it will save you from regreting the 4 gauge later on when you crave more power. Dont spend too much on speaker wiring, just make sure its a heavy enough gauge. For RCA's, skip all the expensive shielding and such, and just get some twisted pair from a name brand.
Do get yourself a capacitor, they have a much lower internal resistance than the battery and will be close to the amps so they dont have to draw power in quick bursts from 16 feet all the way to the battery. In my opinion, a cap is good for vehicle electronics because it smooths out voltage demands from the stereo system and I dont know how good an amp sending all these fluctuating demands is for the vehicle electric systems. Plus instead of your headlights flickering to the bass, they will just dim, and you will be less conspicuous to the cops than those people you see with their headlights doing the strobe effect.
Just my opinion, for everyone quick to jump in like a pack of wolves and debate everything I just said to all hell, just please spare me the rudeness and I will do the same.
In order to spare rudeness I'll just say I diagree with almost everything you posted and leave it at that.
OP, you've got to lay out your goals a little better. I know you say you want to be a notch below competition level, but I'm pretty sure half the guys at competitions are "below competition level" so I'll just take that to mean best bang for the buck "SQ" system. I think I know where you are coming from with regard to volume (just loud enough that you can make it hurt). Most importantly, what kind of budget are you talking about, and what is your willingness to start hacking up your vehicle?
I'll make the following assumptions since you referenced "competition level", please correct me if I'm wrong:
1) No rear fill
2) Active crossover (either via the headunit or an external processor)
3) Simple higher end head unit (no in dash DVD, GPS, big screen or other bullshit)
Here is what I would do, given those assumptions:
Head Unit
Simple headunit capable of a simple 3 way active setup (Tweeters, mid/midbass, and subs) like the Pioneer DEH-P880PRS. OR, if you want more processing power for a 4 way active you could go with something like I am using, Alpine DVA-9860( or 9861) + PXA-H701. The beauty with the alpine setup is that you are only using the head unit as a CD transport. The digital signal is sent via optical cable back to the processor where the D/A conversion takes place. This means you don't have to run RCAs through the whole car and FWIW, my system is dead quiet when there are pauses in music. No audible noise floor at all.
Front Stage
I'd do a simple active 2 way front stage. You can either pick something up with pre-matched drivers, like a set of Rainbows (I had the Profi set before), or you can put something together with "DIY" drivers like those offered by SEAS, Peerless, Morel, Scan Speak, Vifa etc. (go to http://www.madisound.com to take a look). The "DIY" route is more cost effective and can yield the highest performance, but it also requires more research and time. The Rainbow sets I've heard have all been very good and a couple guys on here can hook you up with good pricing (3.5max6spd, 6spdcoupe).
Sub Stage
Here is where you've got to make the call on how much space you want to give up. I'll suggest a single 12 as a starting point and encourage you to research the following subs: IDmax, RL-P, FI Q, w12gti, PG RSD, DIYMA 12
That's not an all inclusive list, but a search for those will yield enough of the "VS." threads that you'll start to get an idea of the competition at that level. One 12 can get pretty loud, 2 is obviously louder. In a small cabin like a Camaro, I think one will suffice.
Most people say sealed = SQ. Truth is, you can have very high SQ with just about any type of enclosure if it is done properly, sealed is just the easiest to do properly and takes up the lease space (aside from IB).
Amplification
If you are going active, you need one channel per driver on the front stage, plus a sub amp. So, assuming the 2-way active, you need 4 channels for the front and a sub channel. This doesn't have to be terribly expensive. I've stepped down from all Arc FD series to the Blaupunkt VA4100 and an RF Punch150 (25 to life) because I decided the money was better spent elsewhere in the system. I'd figure around $200-300 for a decent 4 channel amp.
The sub amp can be any class you want, but I'd suggest one of the more efficient classes like D, G, H etc.. On your sub amp, just go for the power you need (based on subs and enclosure) from a quality manufacturer. There are a lot of good deals in the classifieds for lightly used high power sub amps, like the Sundown SAZ-1500D as an example.
Electrical System
You need to identify what your alternator is rated for. That'll get you started in terms of knowing what your electrical system can take. If you've got a 130 amp alt, you are probably okay for a system of a decent size (not kilowatts of power), if you have 60 amp alt (just making up numbers), you are gonna have some trouble.
In either case, you'll need to determine the total current draw and then size your power/ground wire appropriately. I went with 1/0 from the very beginning because I didn't want to redo the wiring if I added more wattage. Don't get a capacitor. It is a waste of money and it will not fix anything, search capacitor and you'll find plenty of arguments.
People are going to tell you you need a new battery, or two batteries, and a new alt, etc. before you ever even hook it up. My advice is to just install it and then see if you need big electrical upgrades (remember to save money for them in your budget just in case). A new battery solved all of my issues (I have a 140 amp alt).
That was long winded, sorry. PM me if you have any additional questions.
welcome to the site
- Thread Starter
- #5
Ok it seems like the 880PRS is my top choice for a head unit right now. From what I've read so far it's a no BS, high sound quality piece of equipment. Supposedly it has a 16 band EQ on board. Would I get any significant use out of a signal processor if I had that? It seems like signal processors are more for people who want 5.1 surround sound. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Ok now for the front stage: All other things being equal, is there any difference quality-wise between having music playing at 'x dB @150w' and 'x dB @100w with the volume up higher' (assuming i'm not clipping in either senario)? I want to make sure I'm not wasting any money by getting more power than I need.
On and btw, any space behind the back seats is able to be sacrificed and I'm willing to pull the entire car apart to run wires, build enclosures, whatever.
Ok now for the front stage: All other things being equal, is there any difference quality-wise between having music playing at 'x dB @150w' and 'x dB @100w with the volume up higher' (assuming i'm not clipping in either senario)? I want to make sure I'm not wasting any money by getting more power than I need.
On and btw, any space behind the back seats is able to be sacrificed and I'm willing to pull the entire car apart to run wires, build enclosures, whatever.
The reason for a processor like the H701 is the ability to do a 4 way active setup with the option of GEQ or PEQ plus the ability to use steep crossovers and time alignment. It's basically just a step up in terms of flexibility. The optical input from a DVA-9860 or DVA-9861 is a huge plus as well.
The 880 limits you to a 3 way setup (2 way front + subs) unless you add passive crossovers.
There is no iron rule that says "more watts = higher quality". As you mentioned, the important factor is to avoid clipping. Headroom never hurt anybody but clipping sure has.
I have far more wattage available than I need. 4x100 wpc @ 4 ohm on mids and tweets, 2x312 wpc @4 ohms on midbass (they are 8 ohm drivers so figure 170 watts to the driver) and a whole bunch available for the subs, but they are IB so they never see it.
Let me put it this way, I've sold amps because they didn't have enough power. I've never sold one because it had too much.
The 880 limits you to a 3 way setup (2 way front + subs) unless you add passive crossovers.
There is no iron rule that says "more watts = higher quality". As you mentioned, the important factor is to avoid clipping. Headroom never hurt anybody but clipping sure has.
I have far more wattage available than I need. 4x100 wpc @ 4 ohm on mids and tweets, 2x312 wpc @4 ohms on midbass (they are 8 ohm drivers so figure 170 watts to the driver) and a whole bunch available for the subs, but they are IB so they never see it.
Let me put it this way, I've sold amps because they didn't have enough power. I've never sold one because it had too much.
- Thread Starter
- #7
Thanks for the responses... now more questions //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
1. Alright for the front, if I go and buy a set of high quality components (like rainbows), would I be set with supplying 100w to both sides of them or do I need to power each of the four speakers with a 100x4 channel setup?
2. How important is rear fill?
3. What would be the difference between running two 12" subs @ 250w each and running one 12" sub @ 500w? Would there even be any point to that if said 12" sub could handle 500w? I'm still trying to get a grasp on what determines the proper number of subs for what I'm looking for.
4. I've been researching alot of subs and what is really strange to me is how much they differ in rated RMS handling. I'm quite confident from reading people's opinions that both FI-Q's and JLw6v2's are great quality subs, yet the FI-Q is rated for 600w RMS more than the w6 ( acorrding to their respective websites: 1000w RMS vs 400w RMS). Ofcourse I don't expect all subs to be the same but that seems to me like quite a stark difference. What am I missing?
1. Alright for the front, if I go and buy a set of high quality components (like rainbows), would I be set with supplying 100w to both sides of them or do I need to power each of the four speakers with a 100x4 channel setup?
2. How important is rear fill?
3. What would be the difference between running two 12" subs @ 250w each and running one 12" sub @ 500w? Would there even be any point to that if said 12" sub could handle 500w? I'm still trying to get a grasp on what determines the proper number of subs for what I'm looking for.
4. I've been researching alot of subs and what is really strange to me is how much they differ in rated RMS handling. I'm quite confident from reading people's opinions that both FI-Q's and JLw6v2's are great quality subs, yet the FI-Q is rated for 600w RMS more than the w6 ( acorrding to their respective websites: 1000w RMS vs 400w RMS). Ofcourse I don't expect all subs to be the same but that seems to me like quite a stark difference. What am I missing?
1) If you go active, you need to power each speaker with a dedicated amplifier channel. If you use passive crossovers, you will only need a two channel amp, one channel for each side.
2) Opinions on rear fill vary. I do not use rear fill because I like my music in front of me as it would be in a live situation. Run your current stereo with the fader all the way forward for a week and then move it back to the middle. See which one you like better.
3) A few things come into play there. You need to look at cone area, xmax, efficiency, enclosure, etc. There are a lot of variables. One XXX is going to get louder than 2 IDQs. I honestly think you could get by with one Fi Q or one w6v2. It depends on your goals. If you want the bass to blend in with the music then one is fine. If you like to crank it once in a while and hit really hard, you are going to need more.
4) There are both mechanical and thermal limits for all subs. Suffice it to say that a lot of factors play into the RMS rating and some manufacturers are overly conservative in their ratings to prevent people from destroying subs. Enclosures also make a big difference. Throw a sub in an IB configuration or a really big sealed box and it's mechanical limit will be decreased substantially. On the other end, if you put the sub in a smaller sealed enclosure, you may actually increase it's mechanical powerhandling. There are limits to this and you may cause the sub to fail in a different way.
I had both a rainbow profi 12 and a rainbow vanadium 12 (at different times) that were rated for 300 or 350 watts and I put 450 to them all day long. Search for the Fi Q and I think you will find they can handle a bit more power than they are rated for.
2) Opinions on rear fill vary. I do not use rear fill because I like my music in front of me as it would be in a live situation. Run your current stereo with the fader all the way forward for a week and then move it back to the middle. See which one you like better.
3) A few things come into play there. You need to look at cone area, xmax, efficiency, enclosure, etc. There are a lot of variables. One XXX is going to get louder than 2 IDQs. I honestly think you could get by with one Fi Q or one w6v2. It depends on your goals. If you want the bass to blend in with the music then one is fine. If you like to crank it once in a while and hit really hard, you are going to need more.
4) There are both mechanical and thermal limits for all subs. Suffice it to say that a lot of factors play into the RMS rating and some manufacturers are overly conservative in their ratings to prevent people from destroying subs. Enclosures also make a big difference. Throw a sub in an IB configuration or a really big sealed box and it's mechanical limit will be decreased substantially. On the other end, if you put the sub in a smaller sealed enclosure, you may actually increase it's mechanical powerhandling. There are limits to this and you may cause the sub to fail in a different way.
I had both a rainbow profi 12 and a rainbow vanadium 12 (at different times) that were rated for 300 or 350 watts and I put 450 to them all day long. Search for the Fi Q and I think you will find they can handle a bit more power than they are rated for.
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