familiar with the saying "theres no replacement for displacement" tru 4 subs as well?

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

To answer the original question Cone area is a key in efficiency, but not potential peak output. If you have limited amount of power, more cone area has the potential to get louder. If you have unlimited power, you can do amazing things with single drivers but if you can only run a small amount of power several drivers will make better use of it. Also no need to run a lot of low power drivers. You don't need to run RMS to subs.

Huh... I thought I answered it in my very first post in this thread...

 

[spencer321 10+ year member]

Huh... I thought I answered it in my very first post in this thread...

right i understand that but if cone area is the key to efficiency how can it not be to total output? and what i meant by answer my question is what would YOU yourself do, i understand the theory behind it, but im looking for a solid you should go multiple or single

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

I myself use enough cone area to get the output that I want. Last system that was done with a single ported 12 that got a lot less than it was rated for. The system that I'm installing right now is using a pair of sealed 10s again with much less than rated power available.

The reason that you can get more from less cone area wise when power isn't limited is that you can more reliably tweak the single driver and then dump a shitload of power to it without having to worry about driver intermodulation, slight differences in build between the multiple drivers, differences in enclosure loading on multiple drivers and so forth. These things only really manifest when you're talking about everything totally optimized to eek every last 0.1 dB out of the setup at a single freq. For music and a daily driver, multiple subs is much easier to get loud for musical use. They also have the potential to sound better at that high volume thanks to lower power compression and less suspension and BL distortion caused by higher excursion.

There are two ways to get a theoretical 3dB increase in output. Double power or double cone area. That's in theory. In reality, you'll hit a point where the increase for doubling power is significantly less than 3dB and possible almost 0. Doubling cone area will pretty much always give you the full 3dB gain and depending on the layout of the drivers, it's possible to get a little bit more than that. That holds true until you start talking about extreme high outputs.

 

[spencer321 10+ year member]

I myself use enough cone area to get the output that I want. Last system that was done with a single ported 12 that got a lot less than it was rated for. The system that I'm installing right now is using a pair of sealed 10s again with much less than rated power available.
The reason that you can get more from less cone area wise when power isn't limited is that you can more reliably tweak the single driver and then dump a shitload of power to it without having to worry about driver intermodulation, slight differences in build between the multiple drivers, differences in enclosure loading on multiple drivers and so forth. These things only really manifest when you're talking about everything totally optimized to eek every last 0.1 dB out of the setup at a single freq. For music and a daily driver, multiple subs is much easier to get loud for musical use. They also have the potential to sound better at that high volume thanks to lower power compression and less suspension and BL distortion caused by higher excursion.

There are two ways to get a theoretical 3dB increase in output. Double power or double cone area. That's in theory. In reality, you'll hit a point where the increase for doubling power is significantly less than 3dB and possible almost 0. Doubling cone area will pretty much always give you the full 3dB gain and depending on the layout of the drivers, it's possible to get a little bit more than that. That holds true until you start talking about extreme high outputs.

you also get approx a 3db gain from sealed to ported correct?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

you also get approx a 3db gain from sealed to ported correct?

That is highly dependant on the frequency being played, the tuning of the vented enclosure, etc. The increase can be less than 3db, or much greater than 3db. But yes, the general rule of thumb mentally lazy poeple like to use is a 3db increase from sealed to ported.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Without specifying freq, sub(s), enclosure volume, tuning, sealed box volume, etc..., you can't even begin to generalize the gain going from sealed to ported.

 

[Immacomputer 10+ year member]

i don't mean for this to come across sarcastic but, the question at hand is under the assumption that i know how to build a box and anchor it to the chassis (which i do) this is one of those "all things equal and properly done" scenerios where the only variable is cone area, not box or the ability to install it.

I don't mean for this to sound condescending, but you didn't really understand what I was saying in my post. It's possible to use more drivers in the "correct airspace" and to have less output than less drivers also in the "correct airspace" by better coupling the enclosure acoustics to the vehicle acoustics. I don't mean the physical coupling of the enclosure to the vehicle but their acoustical properties.

 

[stophatin 10+ year member]

the saying "theres no replacement for displacement" isnt even true. Its just something domestic owners can say to make themselves feel better.

The truth is, the biggest replacement for displacement, is technology.

And the same can be said for car audio. You can have a high quality 10 pounding way harder than a low quality 15 or 18.

Just like a properly built honda will smoke just about 99.9% of cars on the street, including V8-V12 displacement means nothing.

 

[spencer321 10+ year member]

I don't mean for this to sound condescending, but you didn't really understand what I was saying in my post. It's possible to use more drivers in the "correct airspace" and to have less output than less drivers also in the "correct airspace" by better coupling the enclosure acoustics to the vehicle acoustics. I don't mean the physical coupling of the enclosure to the vehicle but their acoustical properties.

are you refering to the resonance frequency of the vehicle? cuz if not than your right ya lost me

 

[spencer321 10+ year member]

the saying "theres no replacement for displacement" isnt even true. Its just something domestic owners can say to make themselves feel better.
The truth is, the biggest replacement for displacement, is technology.

And the same can be said for car audio. You can have a high quality 10 pounding way harder than a low quality 15 or 18.

Just like a properly built honda will smoke just about 99.9% of cars on the street, including V8-V12 displacement means nothing.

i would love to see a "properly built" honda take on a "properly built" grand nationalbut im not going to argue with you, and don't bring up supras or skylines thats a whole different argument for another thread

 

[spencer321 10+ year member]

Without specifying freq, sub(s), enclosure volume, tuning, sealed box volume, etc..., you can't even begin to generalize the gain going from sealed to ported.

i understand that the gain from sealed to ported has alot of variables, i was just using the generalization the average joe uses.

 

[tez4life Premium Member]

and my theory gets completely disproved lol how does the low end frequency response compare between the 12's and the single 15? one would assume because the 12's have the ability to move more air they would be more pronounced at lower frequencys but i could be wrong

Honestly, it was not a very fair comparaison. It really is too many variables in their. The 12s had a hard time digging low, just was a issue with the subs themselves. Both were in proper boxes, but I suspect the 12s would have walked all over the 15 if they were ported.

Two very different subs, so comparing them is not going to gain much in this thread.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

the saying "theres no replacement for displacement" isnt even true. Its just something domestic owners can say to make themselves feel better.
The truth is, the biggest replacement for displacement, is technology.

Just like a properly built honda will smoke just about 99.9% of cars on the street, including V8-V12 displacement means nothing.

And when you hit the limit of what technology can do how do you do more? Displacement. I'm not talking domestics either. BMW wanted more power for the Ms so they went with more technology? Oh that's right they went with displacement. Nissan wanted more power for the G series Infinitis and the Z so they took one of the most technologically advanced engines on the planet that was tuned out about as much as possible for a production NA engine and they upped the displacement.

The whole cop out about technology being a replacement for displacement is only the poor ricers trying to feel adequate because their little grocery-getters are really still just nothing. Fact is that a properly built big engine will DESTROY a smaller engine every time.

 

[FI15INCH 10+ year member]

I'd go with the 10 15"s

I like the build when the guy does 24 15s //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

http://www.soundsolutionsaudio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19623&hl=

 

[spencer321 10+ year member]

And when you hit the limit of what technology can do how do you do more? Displacement. I'm not talking domestics either. BMW wanted more power for the Ms so they went with more technology? Oh that's right they went with displacement. Nissan wanted more power for the G series Infinitis and the Z so they took one of the most technologically advanced engines on the planet that was tuned out about as much as possible for a production NA engine and they upped the displacement.
The whole cop out about technology being a replacement for displacement is only the poor ricers trying to feel adequate because their little grocery-getters are really still just nothing. Fact is that a properly built big engine will DESTROY a smaller engine every time.

sweet me and taxi agreed on something! but no really as far as overall potential goes i'm not going to speculate but just a big for instance, you can take a turbocharged B16 drop it into a civic and make 300-400hp and have it still be streetable and run on pump gas... OR you can take a 92 5.0 coupe and stick a 351 in it with a T70 and have a car that will make 600-750hp thats streetable on pump gas. and i'm not denying what you did with the civic was pretty sweet, but its just easier to make big horsepower on big engines.