Does it make more sense to upgrade my HU or amp?

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

???

more watts is not necessarily more volume, its more for midrange clarity and for midbass to be more present. Those speakers work on head unit power so 50 watts should be okay for them, the signal processing from the 80 prs is very strong so it'll make up for the lack of power in terms of clarity

 

[Louisiana_CRX 5,000+ posts]

nice setup //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

 

[TTBlues]

more watts is not necessarily more volume, its more for midrange clarity and for midbass to be more present. Those speakers work on head unit power so 50 watts should be okay for them, the signal processing from the 80 prs is very strong so it'll make up for the lack of power in terms of clarity

Well, I def. want mid range clarity and mid-bass...more so than volume (though a little more volume than what I have is desired). In fact, in my current system the 80Hz-150Hz range is really lacking. If I try to boost it, its vague and muddy. I want to hear that bass range much better.

You said the 80prs is strong, but I ordered the X998. Is that what you meant?

So, I'll have the x998 feeding the Alpine MRV-F300 and that driving the ID's on channels 1 and 2, with my sub bridged on 3 and 4.

I just don't want to order the speakers and then be disappointed if my amp can't drive them and have to sell a vital organ to buy a better amp ASAP.

Down the road I will upgrade my amp.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Well, I def. want mid range clarity and mid-bass...more so than volume (though a little more volume than what I have is desired). In fact, in my current system the 80Hz-150Hz range is really lacking. If I try to boost it, its vague and muddy. I want to hear that bass range much better.
You said the 80prs is strong, but I ordered the X998. Is that what you meant?

So, I'll have the x998 feeding the Alpine MRV-F300 and that driving the ID's on channels 1 and 2, with my sub bridged on 3 and 4.

I just don't want to order the speakers and then be disappointed if my amp can't drive them and have to sell a vital organ to buy a better amp ASAP.

Down the road I will upgrade my amp.

oops my bad! i meant the kenwood LOL got the pioneer head unit in my head ATM, been tweaking some crossover functions lately haha.

If you want the midbass kick, read steps 1-9 http://www.513electronics.com/make-your-speakers-sound-better-with-insulation-sound-damping-part-9/

It'll definitely help in the clarity and midbass department. I'm not saying your speakers will sound bad on 50 watts, it'll sound good, but with more power and proper acoustical door treatment, it'll sound amazing.

 

[TTBlues]

Thanks for the link. I'm definitely going to spend some time treating my doors. Like with everything else, I've read of so many different methods and products. These guys come up a lot on the Tacoma (my truck) forums:

RAAMaudio - Automotive sound deadening products

My motors on my automatic windows are starting to slow down. I hope I can fix or replace them while I'm in there. I'd hate to seal everything all nice and pretty and then have my windows die a week later and have to tear into it.

 

[Louisiana_CRX 5,000+ posts]

Kenwood makes nice componets in the Excelon line

 

[TTBlues]

OK, I just installed the X998. The parking lot of my apt. complex is mostly unlit and I was putting things back together in the dark. I tested the fade, balance, source inputs, turned up the sub, and adjusted the crossover frequency of the front and sub. Nothing else......yet

There is an immediate difference. It's way less harsh, more full, and louder. I've been trying to think of how to describe the noticeable sound diff. and all that comes to mind is it sounds more analogue (even though I know it's digital). Warmer, tamer, relaxing.

So, I'm still stoked on this upgrade. I can't wait to start tuning it. Thanks for steering me towards it.

I'm also looking forward to a speaker upgrade and door treatment. I think I could have done the speaker upgrade first and would have seen about the same amount of improvement that I got with this new HU. Clearly the HU and speakers were/are the weak links.

I talked to an installer that is very familiar with my truck ('03 Tacoma). He said speaker fitment is somewhat difficult, especially with 6.5's, though it can be done. The biggest issue is depth. The window rails cross the speaker hole about 2.5" down. So I'll need a shallower speaker and/or a thicker spacer. Though there is also not much room between the inner door skin and door panel for the added spacer. I'll also probably have to widen the speaker hole some.

The stock size is 5x7". I know ID makes the SX-57 but there is the great debate about oval vs. round that remains un-settled. Have any of you ran oval speakers? Actually ran them? Ideal or not, they would at least be a step up from my stock oval speakers, and they have a more shallow depth than the 6.5 counterparts.

 

[TTBlues]

After playing around with this new HU for only a few minutes this morning, I'm convinced of this:

There was something wrong with the preouts on my former HU.

Why? With almost no adjustments, all the mid-bass is back in my system and then some. It had disappeared back when I installed the amp.

My complaints at the start of this thread were:

No mid-bass

Low volume

Harshness

Distortion

There must be a wiring issue at the pre-outs of that HU that were causing phase problems, thus:

canceling many frequencies, including mid-bass

creating an apparent loss in volume

causing the listener (me) to turn up volume to try to compensate for lost frequencies, while still sounding empty. this boosted remaining harsh frequencies

creating weird wave patterns and distortion that hurt the ears

Before installing the amp and sub, my stock door speakers being driven by just the HU had decent mid-bass for stock components. When I installed the amp that went away. Naturally, I suspected the amp and started this post. But after changing out head units, its apparent that the amp is fine, plenty loud, and the mid-bass has returned. AS I've already changed out cables, that leaves only the pre-outs of the former HU as suspect.

Even so, I'm digging all the adjustment capabilities of this new HU.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

For your speakers you just need to create a 6.5 wooden baffle to fit over the stock location and itll also give you more clearance. 5x7 speakers are limited and generally ****.

Trust me, with a bad head unit even great speakers sound bad, youll still have the same harshness. Trust me, i put in many expensive components and thought they all sounded like sh*t until i upgraded the head unit. I even had my doors acoustically treated too. Head unit made the biggest difference in sound quality

 

[TTBlues]

Trust me, with a bad head unit even great speakers sound bad, youll still have the same harshness. Trust me, i put in many expensive components and thought they all sounded like sh*t until i upgraded the head unit. I even had my doors acoustically treated too. Head unit made the biggest difference in sound quality

Well, I've been playing around with this thing trying to tune it for the last 1.5 hours. Although it has A LOT more mid-bass and is louder (amp gains turned down), it lacks the mid range clarity of the 355U. Even though the 355U was harsh, it was very vivid.

This one just sounds dull and grainy. Toms have lots of boom but no attack. Midrange guitars jumble together.

My ears are fatigued from trying to tune it and failing.

I know new speakers will help, but I also know what kind of clarity can be had from the current speakers and now I'm not getting close to it with this unit. I've tried turning off the internal amp (lose mid-bass that way), turning off DSP (lose EQ that way), speaker settings, DTA, lots of EQ, checked all my wiring - twice, turned off all other sound enhancement settings, and still just can't get that jangly guitar sound. It's almost like there's reverb on everything.

Does it sound like I'm just dealing with the inherent EQ characteristics of this HU vs. the other? As in, that's the color of this HU and I'll have to take it as it is.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

pretty sure you just need to work with it a lot more. Its not a head unit for the average person. You'll have to work at it. Does it have an auto EQ/TA function?

 

[TTBlues]

No, no auto. You have to input the numbers for TA and manually adjust EQ. It has presets for both though, and car size select. Car size select didn't seem to change much, but TA did, though not much changed in the eq.

I just took the old HU out to the truck to A/B the two, make sure I'm not crazy or my ears too fatigued to be critical. For some reason the 2.5v sub pre-out on the old HU is a lot hotter than the 4v one on the new HU. If I leave my amp gain where it's at and try both the HU's with +15 db sub level, the old one slams so much harder. So when tuning the new one, I have to have more amp gain on the sub channels respective to the front/door channels for good balance. That's a little surprising. The bass tone of the new HU overall is more tame. The old HU's bass is a little more exciting, but that's probably just distortion.

I'm not trying to dial in all the new features on the new HU. I've mostly just A/B-ed them on/off and then turned them off. Trying to get everything flat and then start there. It just seems like theres a veil over the sound with this new HU that's not there in the old one. Or some particular frequency that for whatever reason is really boosted on this HU and is clouding everything.

I'll keep digging around. I'm new to car audio, but I'm not new to audio. I'm a rec. studio engineer and have a lot of hours clocked at the mixing desk, listening critically. Car audio is very different though, what with the small acoustic space, phase issues, UI of the HU's, separation of the components, etc.

 

[TTBlues]

Another weird bass thing between the two is:

On the old HU, no matter what I do with the crossover, the kick is always PROMINENT in the subwoofer along with the bass guitar.

On the new HU, its mostly in the door speakers and the sub is just all kinds of silky smooth bass. Or its seems that way. It seems a more musical sub being fed from the x998, just not as hard hitting.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

yeah its cleaned up bass. before was distortion, it felt like that when i changed the head unit too. But bass guitars are midbass meant to be played by door speakers. you can always raise the low pass filter on both amp and head unit up to 80 or 100hz if you want the sub to be more present in that range.

Plus these head units volume levels are very clean so when setting your gains you'd want the head unit volume to be at 95% instead of the usual lower listening level.

 

[TTBlues]

The bass guitar I speak of in this instance is reggae, so it's lower and has some sub tone added. It slams with the old HU but is more mellow with the new one. Kinda like the same bass player is playing the same thing but is on different drugs.

I'm not using the filters on the amp, just the HU. The amp's filters never sounded right when I tried to set it up with the other HU. It carved out big holes in the bass.

I got the sub set at 80Hz and the doors at 90Hz. The sub doesn't do much above 80Hz.

Head unit volume at 95% instead of 75%? What about the internal amp? On this HU you can disable it, but when I did that I thought it sounded better with it on, more mid-bass. I read it's supposed to make the pre-out signal cleaner.