Does it make more sense to upgrade my HU or amp?

[TTBlues]

I just installed my first system.

Kenwood KDC-355U HU

Alpine MRV-f300

Stock components

Pioneer sub

It's much improved over stock, but the Alpine doesn't get loud enough before it starts clipping.

I just want a tad more volume. I'm basically always listening with the volume up to its max before clipping. The Alpine is also a little harsh/brittle on the top end.

My Kenwood HU has 2.5v outputs.

Will an HU with 4v outputs give me a little more volume or should I be looking for a new amp? There is a Kenwood Excelon XR-4S posted locally for $150 that I could pick up, but I want to be sure it's going to be the right upgrade.

Thanks.

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[phemps 10+ year member]

Higher voltage pre outputs do not equate to louder. You match the output level of your headunit to the input sensitivity (gain) on your amp. Therefore the only real benefit to higher preouts is having the gain lower which in turn lowers the noise floor of your amp. The amp would be a better upgrade for louder

 

[TTBlues]

Thanks. I didn't think that the higher voltage equates to volume. I just thought it might make the amp more efficient and thus give it a little more boosting room? Maybe thats not correct?

You say the advantage is that you can have the gain lower (i'm assuming for a given volume). Doesn't that mean that at its maximum clean gain, it will be at a higher volume?

The spec sheet for my amp calls for 0.2 - 4.0V.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

I just installed my first system.
Kenwood KDC-355U HU

Alpine MRV-f300

Stock components

Pioneer sub

It's much improved over stock, but the Alpine doesn't get loud enough before it starts clipping.

I just want a tad more volume. I'm basically always listening with the volume up to its max before clipping. The Alpine is also a little harsh/brittle on the top end.

My Kenwood HU has 2.5v outputs.

Will an HU with 4v outputs give me a little more volume or should I be looking for a new amp? There is a Kenwood Excelon XR-4S posted locally for $150 that I could pick up, but I want to be sure it's going to be the right upgrade.

Thanks.

The amp wont make your stock components any louder, they are hitting their limits most likely. You'll need more efficient drivers/better components.

A good head unit will make the biggest difference in overall sound quality and clarity too. Reason why in this thread, http://www.caraudio.com/forums/head-units/609170-help-please-head-unit-eq.html i'm not typing all that again.

Yes a good head unit will make your system noticeably louder IT made mines waaay louder then when i had an average run of the mill head unit. pioneer 4200ub sounded like garbage after switching to the 80 prs.

 

[phemps 10+ year member]

Thanks. I didn't think that the higher voltage equates to volume. I just thought it might make the amp more efficient and thus give it a little more boosting room? Maybe thats not correct?
You say the advantage is that you can have the gain lower (i'm assuming for a given volume). Doesn't that mean that at its maximum clean gain, it will be at a higher volume?

The spec sheet for my amp calls for 0.2 - 4.0V.

You wont hear any audible difference as far as any change in efficiency goes, it takes quite a bit of power to perceive much change in volume. and by gain lower i mean that gain will be lower in relationship to your preout voltage. with lower output voltage you have to turn up the gain more to produce the same maximum unclipped signal from your amp. this is why its called sensitivity. you need a higher factor gain from your amp to match the lower output level of your headunit

 

[phemps 10+ year member]

The amp wont make your stock components any louder, they are hitting their limits most likely. You'll need more efficient drivers/better components.
A good head unit will make the biggest difference in overall sound quality and clarity too. Reason why in this thread, http://www.caraudio.com/forums/head-units/609170-help-please-head-unit-eq.html i'm not typing all that again.

Yes a good head unit will make your system noticeably louder IT made mines waaay louder then when i had an average run of the mill head unit. pioneer 4200ub sounded like garbage after switching to the 80 prs.

He doesnt seem to be referring to sound quality as much as loudness but yes, this is true there really is only so much you can get out of a component set. Any excess power can be beneficial for headroom but that's about it.

 

[tc300 10+ year member]

The biggest difference you will notice is if the deck you get has a 24-bit da converter... Will be more clear

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

lol I inherently assume everyone wants the best of both worlds. SQL for life!

 

[TTBlues]

Let me clarify:

I determined my max volume of my HU to be 24. I rolled it back to 22.

I raised the gain on my amp until clipping occurred and then rolled it back a tad.

The volume is no louder than if I just drive the speakers with the HU speaker outs. I did an A/B test today. Put the HU at 22. Alternated the speakers to the outputs of the amp and then the HU. Equal volume more of less.

The amp sounds better for sure, though can get a little harsh on the top end. I definitely want SQ over volume. But I still have a minimum volume at which I want to listen and my current set up isn't cutting it. The amp distorts before it can boost the 2.5v signal past what the HU can do.

So, I want to change something. I just want to listen a few notches higher. Nothing more. I'm not competing or playing for other people. But if my jam comes on, I want to notch it up and cruise. Or if I'm working outside my truck, I want to be able to turn it up a bit. As it is, it's maxed out at the volume at which I listen.

 

[TTBlues]

And thanks for all the replies. The front drivers can take what's currently being given them because as I said it's no louder than what the HU does itself. I'm saving up for HQ components, but can't buy them yet.

I'm wondering if maybe I got a bad amp or if my expectation are too high. The amp is 50watts rms and my HU is 22watts rms???

 

[TTBlues]

So phemps says get a higher wattage amp

jeffdachef says get a better HU

tc300 says high quality 24 bit converters

P.S. I tried setting the gain on my amp with a DMM. My amp is 50w x 4 and my fronts are 4 ohms. That means I'm seeking 14.1V on the meter. I had to crank the gain almost all the way before I saw that. I know that's not good. When I checked it with a 1K tone at 0db, it was clipping and I had to roll it back some until it was clean again. Maybe its a bad amp????

 

[phemps 10+ year member]

So phemps says get a higher wattage ampjeffdachef says get a better HU

tc300 says high quality 24 bit converters

P.S. I tried setting the gain on my amp with a DMM. My amp is 50w x 4 and my fronts are 4 ohms. That means I'm seeking 14.1V on the meter. I had to crank the gain almost all the way before I saw that. I know that's not good. When I checked it with a 1K tone at 0db, it was clipping and I had to roll it back some until it was clean again. Maybe its a bad amp????

I also didnt realize your speakers were not upgraded which obviously is a factor. are they bare bones factory? getting speakers with a higher sensitivity, and a proper install may be the way to go because small increases in power dont make the largest difference although going from headnuit power to ~100 watts a side sure does

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

And thanks for all the replies. The front drivers can take what's currently being given them because as I said it's no louder than what the HU does itself. I'm saving up for HQ components, but can't buy them yet.
I'm wondering if maybe I got a bad amp or if my expectation are too high. The amp is 50watts rms and my HU is 22watts rms???

The 24 bit convertors mean a good head unit, they are an important component in good head units. Most average head units only have 12-16, very poor quality music source.

Okay no more sugar coating. I'm gonna straight up be real with you man.

Head units only make 10-14 real watts maximum per channel no matter what BS numbers they post up on their specs.

The alpine amp is good its not bad at the least

Your head unit sucks, your stock speakers suck but the speakers arent the main problem the head unit is.

Every sound quality related problem you have right now will be cleared up with a pioneer 80 prs with an auto EQ/TA run

followed up by a component upgrade if you are still not happy. A new amp should be the last thing you upgrade of the three

Bottom line The amp is good, your signal is horrible. A signal can determine overall midrange clarity and detail along with how harsh tweeters will sound.

cheap 150$ and under head units typically sound like junk compared to real SQ oriented head units anyone that says there's no difference has obviously never tried one before. World of difference trust me it'll make 10x more of a difference then a new amp.

Also as said before, amp gains and head unit pre-out means you are only matching the head unit voltage and the amp. Its not a volume knob after a certain level, you get the max power out of your amp and anymore is just distortion thats why you didnt notice any increase in volume in your tests, no matter what you do it'll reach max non distorted loudness.

With a better head unit, you'll have a stronger signal, gets louder, clearer, sounds way better and have a lot less distortion its not the pre-out voltage but its the overall processed signal thats stronger. The higher pre-out voltage just means you dont have to set your gain as high to reach max power output from the amp but you will still only be getting the same power, higher pre-out voltage does not magically create power or loudness.

head units to consider: kenwood x998, alpine 147bt, 148bt, 149 bt, pioneer 80 prs,

 

[I'mPoor:(]

lol I inherently assume everyone wants the best of both worlds. SQL for life!

Kicker people don't.

 

[TTBlues]

The 24 bit convertors mean a good head unit, they are an important component in good head units. Most average head units only have 12-16, very poor quality music source.
Okay no more sugar coating. I'm gonna straight up be real with you man.

Head units only make 10-14 real watts maximum per channel no matter what BS numbers they post up on their specs.

The alpine amp is good its not bad at the least

Your head unit sucks, your stock speakers suck but the speakers arent the main problem the head unit is.

Every sound quality related problem you have right now will be cleared up with a pioneer 80 prs with an auto EQ/TA run

followed up by a component upgrade if you are still not happy. A new amp should be the last thing you upgrade of the three

Bottom line The amp is good, your signal is horrible. A signal can determine overall midrange clarity and detail along with how harsh tweeters will sound.

cheap 150$ and under head units typically sound like junk compared to real SQ oriented head units anyone that says there's no difference has obviously never tried one before. World of difference trust me it'll make 10x more of a difference then a new amp.

Also as said before, amp gains and head unit pre-out means you are only matching the head unit voltage and the amp. Its not a volume knob after a certain level, you get the max power out of your amp and anymore is just distortion thats why you didnt notice any increase in volume in your tests, no matter what you do it'll reach max non distorted loudness.

With a better head unit, you'll have a stronger signal, gets louder, clearer, sounds way better and have a lot less distortion its not the pre-out voltage but its the overall processed signal thats stronger. The higher pre-out voltage just means you dont have to set your gain as high to reach max power output from the amp but you will still only be getting the same power, higher pre-out voltage does not magically create power or loudness.

head units to consider: kenwood x998, alpine 147bt, 148bt, 149 bt, pioneer 80 prs,

Thanks for all that. It makes sense. But my Kenwood KDC-355U has 24 bit D/A converters.
Kenwood KDC-355U CD receiver at Crutchfield.com

You listed the KDC-x998 as a viable upgrade, but when I looked it up to compare with what I have, it seemed like the 998 just has more features and of course the 4V outputs . More tone sculpting controls, which I want anyhow. Here's that link:

Kenwood Excelon KDC-X998 CD receiver at Crutchfield.com

I'm not sure what specs I should be comparing. To my understanding they share they same processor, but I may be wrong.

I'll look up the pioneer.