Megalomaniac
5,000+ posts
Mr.SQ
what i did on my accord was placed a layer of damplifier on that panel right behind driver and the added overkill on top of that. before i added the overkill i wanted to hear how it sounded. so i hooked up the mid and installed, i got a lot of standing waves. then i added the overkill then reinstalled drivers, and man wow it made a world of difference having that foam there.
some use the egg crate others use deflex pads and others use overkill/ensolite. its up to you to pick your poison, it boils down to your installation skillz really //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Megalomaniac
5,000+ posts
Mr.SQ
ant is out of town, he wont be at office until monday //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif i got an email from him //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
helotaxi
5,000+ posts
Kilroy was Here
Are the outer panel of your door and the baffle that your mids are mounted to perfectly parallel? I didn't think so. You're worrying about nothing. The point of the deflex pads is to break up the potential for standing waves in a rectangular midrange enclosure in the typical home audio cabinet. It usually is wholly unneeded in a car door. Basic sound deadening will do much more than the pad ever could.
helotaxi
5,000+ posts
Kilroy was Here
Thus making the deflex pad pointless. Cute.
Actually you are wrong. Placing a deflex pad directly behind a driver sends the rear wave directly back into the rear of the cone of the driver thus defeating the purpose of the deflex pad in the first place. The Deflex pad being at a 15 deg angle defelects the rear wave away from the rear of the driver. Hope this makes sense if not I will try to explain it better.
helotaxi
5,000+ posts
Kilroy was Here
There is no flat surface on a deflex pad. It is a diffuser. It scatters the rear wave. If the rear surface is already reflecting the rear wave away from driver then the deflex pad doesn't need to be there. Does that make sense to you? If the deflex pad is parallel to the mounting baffle of the driver, the pad should act as a diffuser and scatter the reflection in every direction other than right back at the driver. Make sense?
Quote from the Deflex product page: "Enclosures that are shallow and have a rear wall that is parallel to the speaker benefit the most from a power pad application."
Still want to disagree?
Quote from the Deflex product page: "Enclosures that are shallow and have a rear wall that is parallel to the speaker benefit the most from a power pad application."
Still want to disagree?
I believed the same as you. Until talking with someone with inside knowledge from Cascade about how they are designed and why the 15 Deg. Angle from the driver.
I will see if they want to come and entertain this conversation and provide the technical insight. I am only providing the info from the way it was explained to me. I to did not understand why the hell you would not place the directly behind the driver.
This is another answer I recieved on the the deflex pad when I researched it.
"I strongly suggest you follow this advise. Preferably 15 degrees to the length of the door. Directly parallel will result in very little gain.
This is "another gain" possibly outside of most peoples thinking.
If you consider the door panel a main contributor to ingress of road noise (I most certainly do) then how well do you think the cone of a radiating driver is going to be at attenuating road noise.
Test
Drive around without your interior trim on a door, and re- evaluate the importance of a deflector behind your driver cone.
Point
Use a deflector to reduce road noise back through your cone."
So yep I still disagree. Unless you have spoken with someone directly from Cascade. Thats where I got my info from. I have read the samething you posted already about the recommendation. Thats why I was so confused myself after reading what you posted then finding out it is to be placed at 15 deg. angle to optimize the product.
You will disagree with what I just posted. Rather you will disgree with Cascade on what they have stated.
I do not know what SS stance(Ant) is on this. Would be interesting to find out as I would put money on their products both come from the same place marketed under different brand names.
helotaxi
5,000+ posts
Kilroy was Here
How about use basic sound deadening principles to keep road noise from coming through the back of a speaker. I don't know who you talked to, but they themselves seemed quite confused on the purpose of the deflex pad vs. basic sound deadening product. The product page that I quoted directly contradicted what they told you. Do the math yourself.
Math Myself below-
Sound deadening or dampener. Basic principle is to change or absorb the resonance from the panel which dissipates the energy into heat. A barrier is designed to block noise/sound like VBP, VB3.5 ect. A sound deadener is not designed to be a barrier however it does have some sound blocking or barrier properties. The foil layer plays a role in helping with this.
So a dampener does help with the road noise but it does not eliminate it. If you want to work to eliminate it you then must step-up to a Barrier/Blocker such MLV, Lead ect.
Then you can get into absorbers/decouplers and trying to reach the final frontier. Such as Ensolite, Ultra Stage Mat, Owens Corning Black Acoustic Blanket and BackStop 1.0 which is another product designed to do a little more than the deflex pad.
So we can continue to talk about sound deadener or like products. I like discussing deadener I can always learn something new.
I will try to explain the 15 degree thing later. I am sure you will have something new you want to teach me about deadening and I am opening to learning something new.
We can also talk some products you don't see like cork underlayment.
Something else we can talk about is STC and NRC(Noise Reduction Coefficient). Here is a link I used to understand the two terms.
http://www.fomo.com/resources/technical-bulletins/Sound-Transmission-Class.aspx
Here is some good learning from FoxPro5.
The language of sound blocking is spoken in a couple different terms. One is STC rating. Here's the low down on what the spec means and the general rules of thumb to know when buying soundproofing materials.
Transmission Loss is a measurement of a partition's ability to block sound at a given frequency, or the number of decibels that sound of a given frequency is reduced in passing through a partition. Measuring Transmission Loss over a range of 16 different frequencies between 125-4000 Hz, is the basis for determining a partitions Sound Transmission Class.
http://www.stcratings.com/rules.html
http://www.fomo.com/resources/technical-bulletins/Sound-Transmission-Class.aspx
Here is some good learning from FoxPro5.
The language of sound blocking is spoken in a couple different terms. One is STC rating. Here's the low down on what the spec means and the general rules of thumb to know when buying soundproofing materials.
Transmission Loss is a measurement of a partition's ability to block sound at a given frequency, or the number of decibels that sound of a given frequency is reduced in passing through a partition. Measuring Transmission Loss over a range of 16 different frequencies between 125-4000 Hz, is the basis for determining a partitions Sound Transmission Class.
http://www.stcratings.com/rules.html
jesus christ people, they are what, 20 bucks. Put them in, if it doesn't help or makes it worse pull them out...if its better leave them in...how hard is that, not like its a 100 dollar item. Over analyze something a little bit more expensive, for the cheap stuff let your ears do the test.
helotaxi
5,000+ posts
Kilroy was Here
The problem is that deflex is not a sound blocker or anything like any of the normal deadener. It isn't intended as such. It it meant to kill standing waves and prevent reflections from the rear wall of the enclosure from going back to the cone and coloring the sound. It does its job based on surface pattern, not the material composition. Sound deadening material depends on the composition of the material to do its job. If you look at the STC or NRC of a deflex pad you'll see what I'm talking about. It isn't meant to stop or diminish the transmission of sound through a surface. It is meant to scatter reflected sound, nothing more. If the rear of the enclosure is sloped in relation to the driver's baffle the effect and thus the gain from the deflex pad is reduced because the reflection is already being diverted away from the rear of the cone. Basic acoustics.
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