Current events discussion

[ThxOne Premium Member]

Don't hold your breathe buddy

Biden tariffs are effective and necessary...anything the orange fella does is evil and proof he's trying to be a dictator

I wish we could be as angelic as the left.

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

Then why were we using tariffs prior to Trump and since Trump? If they're a failure why does pretty much every country utilize tariffs. You're arguing theory against what's happening right now in the real world...

Tariffs pretty much got eliminated when we went to the current taxation system.
Pretty much every attempt to use them in a punitive way since has failed, including the last time Trump tried them.

I asked for evidence where tariffs have succeeded in past decades, but neither you nor Thx has been able to provide any. For **** sake, neither of you will even admit that a tariff is not a charge levied on the exporting country, but on the citizens of the receiving country.

Since you refuse to even answer a basic question to show you know what a tariff is and who pays it, I'll answer your question about other countries that use tariffs, with a question: Do you think the US is the same as these top-ten countries that rely on tariffs to stay solvent? Do you think we should tack 24% onto the price of all our goods, on TOP of all the taxes we already pay?
Remember that WE pay the tariff fees, just like the citizens of Bermuda pay the tariff on goods coming there.
A can of Coke in Bermuda is $3.42. The Bermuda dollar is 1:1 with the US dollar.
Good deal?

It is obvious no matter what proof or facts he is given his position will not change. He is all about how everything Trump is doing or suggesting is bad no matter what because "Orange Man Bad". His side lost the election by a land slide and this is all he has now. Demands of proof he will never accept.

I mean like this Biden fact:
"The Biden administration has kept most of the Trump administration tariffs in place, and in May 2024, announced tariff hikes on an additional $18 billion of Chinese goods, including semiconductors and electric vehicles, for an additional tax increase of $3.6 billion". - Taxfoundation.org.

Christ on ice and Mary in the penalty box, you can't even answer the question of who pays the tariff on an imported product, and you think you've supported your repeated rhetoric with "proof or facts"?

Shit, Trump lost the popular by the thinnest margin in TWO DECADES, and you think it's a "landslide" because you heard him say the word. Due some due diligence, kid:

And, find me a post where I congratulated Biden on keeping Trump-era punitive tariffs in place.
But since you think Trump's tariffs were a good idea and a success, then you should have no complaints about price hikes under Biden.
Right?

Your Biden fact is accurate, but you seem to have missed a very important fact that was also on that webapge:

• The Trump administration imposed nearly $80 billion worth of new taxes on Americans by levying tariffs on thousands of products valued at approximately $380 billion in 2018 and 2019, amounting to one of the largest tax increases in decades.
• The Biden administration has kept most of the Trump administration tariffs in place, and in May 2024, announced tariff hikes on an additional $18 billion of Chinese goods, including semiconductors and electric vehicles, for an additional tax increase of $3.6 billion.
• We estimate the Trump-Biden tariffs will reduce long-run GDP by 0.2 percent, the capital stock by 0.1 percent, and employment by 142,000 full-time equivalent jobs.
• Before accounting for behavioral effects, the $79 billion in higher tariffs amounts to an average annual tax increase on US households of $625. Based on actual revenue collections data, trade war tariffs have directly increased tax collections by $200 to $300 annually per US household, on average. Both estimates understate the cost to US households because they do not factor in the lost output, lower incomes, and loss in consumer choice the tariffs have caused.

Wasn't Trump the guy who was going to lower prices AND taxes?

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

Tariffs pretty much got eliminated when we went to the current taxation system.
Pretty much every attempt to use them in a punitive way since has failed, including the last time Trump tried them.

I asked for evidence where tariffs have succeeded in past decades, but neither you nor Thx has been able to provide any. For **** sake, neither of you will even admit that a tariff is not a charge levied on the exporting country, but on the citizens of the receiving country.

Since you refuse to even answer a basic question to show you know what a tariff is and who pays it, I'll answer your question about other countries that use tariffs, with a question: Do you think the US is the same as these top-ten countries that rely on tariffs to stay solvent? Do you think we should tack 24% onto the price of all our goods, on TOP of all the taxes we already pay?
Remember that WE pay the tariff fees, just like the citizens of Bermuda pay the tariff on goods coming there.
A can of Coke in Bermuda is $3.42. The Bermuda dollar is 1:1 with the US dollar.
Good deal?

View attachment 61606


Christ on ice and Mary in the penalty box, you can't even answer the question of who pays the tariff on an imported product, and you think you've supported your repeated rhetoric with "proof or facts"?

Shit, Trump lost the popular by the thinnest margin in TWO DECADES, and you think it's a "landslide" because you heard him say the word. Due some due diligence, kid:
View attachment 61607

And, find me a post where I congratulated Biden on keeping Trump-era punitive tariffs in place.
But since you think Trump's tariffs were a good idea and a success, then you should have no complaints about price hikes under Biden.
Right?

Your Biden fact is accurate, but you seem to have missed a very important fact that was also on that webapge:

• The Trump administration imposed nearly $80 billion worth of new taxes on Americans by levying tariffs on thousands of products valued at approximately $380 billion in 2018 and 2019, amounting to one of the largest tax increases in decades.
• The Biden administration has kept most of the Trump administration tariffs in place, and in May 2024, announced tariff hikes on an additional $18 billion of Chinese goods, including semiconductors and electric vehicles, for an additional tax increase of $3.6 billion.
• We estimate the Trump-Biden tariffs will reduce long-run GDP by 0.2 percent, the capital stock by 0.1 percent, and employment by 142,000 full-time equivalent jobs.

Wasn't Trump the guy who was going to lower prices AND taxes?

Rob is reeeaaaallllly triggered right now.

Where is the proof that tariffs work? Really Rob? How bout the fact that the Biden administration is still using most of Trumps tariffs and some of their own.

FFS, what is wrong with you Rob? Are you really that bitter of a person, that much of a male Karen, do you have that much TDS???

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

Shit, Trump lost the popular by the thinnest margin in TWO DECADES, and you think it's a "landslide" because you heard him say the word.

What was the electoral vote count?

A can of Coke in Bermuda is $3.42. The Bermuda dollar is 1:1 with the US dollar.
Good deal?

And because of that coke's sales aren't good in brazil...lower demand means less the producer of the good profits...

then you should have no complaints about price hikes under Biden.
Right?

The price hikes weren't from tariffs...

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

Well, yes, the bankers would be considered the top of the pyramid in many peoples eyes. If you consider something like bloodlines of the Illuminati and the anunnaki, there's thoughts that bankers and royal families and what not have more of the "gods'" dna from the manipulation of humanity at the Genesis moment, thousands and thousands of years ago, and believe they have a theocratic right to rule over the world because of that, superior genetics, eugenics, that's where it comes from, money and taxes. They believe their genetics makes them more children of the gods than you dumb dipshit tax paying slaves who will all be eradicated for the birth of ai. The whole concept of money and modern civilization was fed to us from the gods, if you go read about what people were talking about like 7000 years ago. According to the ancient humans, we mine gold because the anunnaki designed us to for them, then we got gold currency as our main human currency since then.

View attachment 61600
View attachment 61601

I'm still not seeing how this slavery. Perhaps you're misusing the word slavery? And of course this all based on the assumption that JP Morgan, the Rothschilds, et al are "more alien" than the rest of us.

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

WalMart bases like 80% of their sales in the US on goods from China.
That's $400 BILLION per year of goods that "break in a day", so I guess they do a billion a day in replacing what they sold us yesterday.
Pretty amazing business model. Wish I had thought of it.

It is a brilliant business model and it's the one China has unleashed on the US consumer.

We're "paying China to be our enemy" because they provide the goods cheaper than we can make here them while maintaining the profit level that is required by manufacturers, investors, etc.
We pay pretty much all of our enemies to provide us goods we need, and our enemies pay us to provide them the goods THEY need.
I'm not saying that makes sense, but it's a reality of world trade that's existed for longer than we've been alive.

And Trump is here rebalance those scales.

Tariff failures are not a "Trump" syndrome. They got replace by our current system of taxation, and were also pushed out to promote freer international trade. They failed before him, and they failed with him.
He just uses them as a battle cry for his followers to get behind him, and won't even tell the truth about who pays for them.
****, no one here will even admit that they go direct to the consumer, and the "big boys" of retail commerce have flat-out said so.

LOL - tariffs are working pretty damn good for China.

And I'd bet good money that no one will admit how much the retaliatory tariffs other countries place on our goods ended up costing us. For example, the $31 BILLION we paid to farmers in subsidies when their product didn't go overseas.

You see, WE can absorb the cost of a tariff a helluva lot easier than other countries whose citizens are either poor, or already paying high taxes. Jack up our prices, and we continue buying from Canada. They don't get hurt.
Jack up pricing of US goods in Canada where they already pay significantly more taxes? They'll make US pay.

We very well may not have a tariff with Canada and just because we tariff their products, doesn't mean they'll tariff ours (see China).

The mathematical FACT is that the last time Trump attempted to punish other countries by making us pay more for goods, it failed. It ended up being equivalent to one of the biggest tax increases we've had in DECADES. The money was just taken under a different name.

So Trump "lowers taxes" and everyone cheers. He then increases the cost of goods with tariffs that WE pay for which more than offsets the tax "reduction", effectively giving us the largest tax increase in decades, and we cheer.

You can post that same phrase 100x, Spokey.
Instead, show me evidence of how tariffs in the past 50 years have worked for the US. Since Trump wants to give it another go, maybe focus on the tariffs he attempted the last time around.

Explain their success using actual dollar figures and evidence of how other countries "changed their ways" when Trump threatened, and then enacted the tariffs.

No memes, no hyperbole, not "you just don't understand the wizard behind the curtain". Just show me the hard economic facts and figures, and proof that they all bent to our will, and did what we demanded.

A reasonable ask in a discussion of what our future might be like.

Correct me if I'm wrong but tax revenues appeared to drop under Trump.

Fiscal Data Explains Federal Revenue

Check out @FiscalService Fiscal Data’s new federal revenue page! #FederalRevenue

fiscaldata.treasury.gov

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

Rob is reeeaaaallllly triggered right now.

Where is the proof that tariffs work? Really Rob? How bout the fact that the Biden administration is still using most of Trumps tariffs and some of their own.

FFS, what is wrong with you Rob? Are you really that bitter of a person, that much of a male Karen, do you have that much TDS???

Why is it that you and Spokey always answer very clear and direct questions with sidesteps, tangents, backpedals, misdirection?

I'll make the question as short as possible "Who pays the tariff?"

YOU looked to a specific page to prove that tariffs are a great thing.
The same page shows how much of a punishment they were to the average US household last time.
How much did the foreign countries bow to Trump's demands?

• The Trump administration imposed nearly $80 billion worth of new taxes on Americans by levying tariffs on thousands of products valued at approximately $380 billion in 2018 and 2019, amounting to one of the largest tax increases in decades.

YOU are the guy who has been complaining about higher prices all along, but you think they are good when TRUMP causes them, AND we don't see any of the promised benefits?

So, can you show me where the punitive tariffs Trump enacted were a success, other than us paying more for goods?

What was the electoral vote count?

A difference of 1.6% in the popular vote is not a landslide, not matter what your personal definition of the word might be.

And because of that coke's sales aren't good in brazil...lower demand means less the producer of the good profits...

Interesting, as Coke doesn't release their sales data to the public, and Bermuda is not part of Brazil.
But if you assume the tariffs keep Coke sales down, then Bermudans must not be buying much of ANY of the most common food staples that we eat here.

The price hikes weren't from tariffs...

They are directly attributed to the tariffs.
But since you already indicated you know more than all the economists in the world, can you explain how they are wrong?

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

It's weird how tariffs work. Under Trump they were the worst thing ever. Under Biden "protectionist trade policies" led to the "best economy ever." That said, I'll give Biden credit for realizing that China's trade practices are extremely unfair.

FACT SHEET: President Biden Takes Action to Protect American Workers and Businesses from China’s Unfair Trade Practices | The White House

President Biden’s economic plan is supporting investments and creating good jobs in key sectors that are vital for America’s economic future and national

www.whitehouse.gov

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/13/politics/china-tariffs-biden-trump/index.html

Weighing Biden’s China Tariffs

Global risks–including Chinese overcapacity–have increased, but government intervention should seek to minimize trade-offs.

www.cfr.org

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

A difference of 1.6% in the popular vote is not a landslide, not matter what your personal definition of the word might be.

The popular vote isn't how we elect presidents...what was the electoral count?

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

But if you assume the tariffs keep Coke sales down, then Bermudans must not be buying much of ANY of the most common food staples that we eat here.

Locally produced goods will be cheaper so that's probably what they're buying. And to assume the Bermuda diet is like ours is a bit bigoted there buddy...

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

They are directly attributed to the tariffs.
But since you already indicated you know more than all the economists in the world, can you explain how they are wrong?

Nobody is indicating that they "know more than all the economists in the world." Despite claims to the contrary, Trump's tariffs last time around didn't destroy the economy. Ultimately these policies will take a long time to take effect and numerous other factors will affect the net outcome. Would we have gone full in on free trade with China if we would have known that 30 years later we would have the insane trade imbalance with China? Remember we thought we building an new economy to export to, we thought we creating an ally of sorts (like Japan & Germany). Instead we've built up our greatest enemy. If you want to stay on that track, good for you. Trump and a majority of the voters know a shitty deal when we see one and it's long overdue that we change our trade policies with China.

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

It is a brilliant business model and it's the one China has unleashed on the US consumer.

Maybe you're being contrarian just to have good debate, but I think we both know it's not reality.
Quality of goods has decreased to meet price demands, but we both know that if quality fell THAT far, people would simply stop buying.

And Trump is here rebalance those scales.

How will he do it successfully this time, when it failed last time?

LOL - tariffs are working pretty damn good for China.

Do you mean the tariffs they impose on imports, or the ones we impose on our imports?

We very well may not have a tariff with Canada and just because we tariff their products, doesn't mean they'll tariff ours (see China).

"Canada is already examining tariffs on certain US items following Trump's tariff threat​

A government official says Canada is already examining possible retaliatory tariffs on certain items from the United States should President-elect Donald Trump follow through on his threat to impose sweeping tariffs on Canadian products
ByROB GILLIES Associated Press
November 27, 2024, 2:51 PM"

And Canada imposed dollar-for-dollar matching retaliatory tariffs on products imported from the US on July 1, 2018, causing Trump to back down.
i think that means they called his "bluff", and won that round.

​

Correct me if I'm wrong but tax revenues appeared to drop under Trump.

Fiscal Data Explains Federal Revenue

Check out @FiscalService Fiscal Data’s new federal revenue page! #FederalRevenue

fiscaldata.treasury.gov

View attachment 61610

TAX revenues. They were offset (and then some) by TARIFF revenues.
If I give the the government $50 when I buy a TV, it's $50 whether you call it a tax, a tariff, a contribution, a tithing, an offering, or a gift.

• The Trump administration imposed nearly $80 billion worth of new taxes on Americans by levying tariffs on thousands of products valued at approximately $380 billion in 2018 and 2019, amounting to one of the largest tax increases in decades.

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

The popular vote isn't how we elect presidents...what was the electoral count?

It was a slaughter. Kamala lost every swing state. The GOP has majorities in the House & Senate. The GOP won 8-3 for Governor seats. The kicker is, people are fleeing Cali & NY and moving to places like Florida, Montana & Texas, so the blues will lose more power in the house and electoral college moving forward.

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

Nobody is indicating that they "know more than all the economists in the world." Despite claims to the contrary, Trump's tariffs last time around didn't destroy the economy. Ultimately these policies will take a long time to take effect and numerous other factors will affect the net outcome. Would we have gone full in on free trade with China if we would have known that 30 years later we would have the insane trade imbalance with China? Remember we thought we building an new economy to export to, we thought we creating an ally of sorts (like Japan & Germany). Instead we've built up our greatest enemy. If you want to stay on that track, good for you. Trump and a majority of the voters know a shitty deal when we see one and it's long overdue that we change our trade policies with China.

Spokey made it very clear that the consensus of the world's economists was wrong, and that they are simply pundits repeating a party line (or something like that).
To be able to declare that, the person declaring it is saying they know better than everyone else.
No different from the anti-vaxxers who barely made it through high-school, but "did their own research" and know better than anyone else about how vaccines work.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to swap things around and make us even stronger as the strongest economy in the world, but if the only way we can do it is by preventing world commerce, then we may have a bigger problem.

But to speak of the success of tariffs: If they worked so well, why did mfg jobs in the US decline under Trump? Why did our overall "contribution" to the government on goods purchases go up?
Why did the government have to up the subsidies to our farmers by an addition $31 billion?
Why did he back down on tariffs when Canada hit us with dollar-for-dollar matching tariffs?
Which country, that we imposed tariffs on, created an anti-exit force to keep people inside their borders?
Which country, that we imposed tariffs on, stopped the illegal drug exports to the US?

Based on what has already happened in the past:

• We estimate the Trump-Biden tariffs will reduce long-run GDP by 0.2 percent, the capital stock by 0.1 percent, and employment by 142,000 full-time equivalent jobs.

Where is the win?

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

Maybe you're being contrarian just to have good debate, but I think we both know it's not reality.
Quality of goods has decreased to meet price demands, but we both know that if quality fell THAT far, people would simply stop buying.

WTF are you talking about? Quality has fallen that far. I'm replacing shower valves every 3-4 years because I have no choice. Sink Disposals are also on a 4 year cycle. I have no choice but to pay the piper. It has nothing to with price, it's a business model - it's more profitable to make me buy these items over and over and over rather than charging say twice as much but they'll never see me again as a customer.

How will he do it successfully this time, when it failed last time?

Do you mean the tariffs they impose on imports, or the ones we impose on our imports?

"Canada is already examining tariffs on certain US items following Trump's tariff threat​

A government official says Canada is already examining possible retaliatory tariffs on certain items from the United States should President-elect Donald Trump follow through on his threat to impose sweeping tariffs on Canadian products
ByROB GILLIES Associated Press
November 27, 2024, 2:51 PM"

And Canada imposed dollar-for-dollar matching retaliatory tariffs on products imported from the US on July 1, 2018, causing Trump to back down.
i think that means they called his "bluff", and won that round.

​

Simply calling it a failure doesn't make it a failure. Trump backed away from tariff that didn't make sense in the first place, I'd call that prudent, not a "loss."

TAX revenues. They were offset (and then some) by TARIFF revenues.
If I give the the government $50 when I buy a TV, it's $50 whether you call it a tax, a tariff, a contribution, a tithing, an offering, or a gift.

• The Trump administration imposed nearly $80 billion worth of new taxes on Americans by levying tariffs on thousands of products valued at approximately $380 billion in 2018 and 2019, amounting to one of the largest tax increases in decades.

So if I pay an extra $50 for a TV, but my income taxes went down $55, then how is that tax increase? Looks like a tax decrease to me. This is just finding some data point to fit the narrative.