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You kind of threw me on the belief thing since atheist dont have any beliefs.
beliefs (OR lackthereof) is what i said //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

and atheists DO have beliefs: they don't believe in religion. that is a belief. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

-nate

 
I find debating/talking about religion on any forum except for a religious one is mainly going to fall upon deaf ears and most likely piss people off.

The best way to really communicate with someone about religion is one on one

 
Heaven and Hell alike are associated with Christianity and Satanism.
Both know the other is there, and acknowledge it.

Always two sides Good and Evil.

Don't believe in Jesus or satan? Can't very well go to either place now can we? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wow.gif.23d729408e9177caa2a0ed6a2ba6588e.gif

Food for thought!

-zane

if i live way out in the country and dont know the police exist and go out and kill someone im still going to jail. if i dont believe that blasting my ears with large amounts of bass will destroy my ears, my ears are still going to get messed up, if something exists and you dont believe in it, it still exists

 
if i live way out in the country and dont know the police exist and go out and kill someone im still going to jail. if i dont believe that blasting my ears with large amounts of bass will destroy my ears, my ears are still going to get messed up, if something exists and you dont believe in it, it still exists

I thought that previous statement I made would bring in some interesting thoughts! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

take it easy,

-zane

 
if i live way out in the country and dont know the police exist and go out and kill someone im still going to jail. if i dont believe that blasting my ears with large amounts of bass will destroy my ears, my ears are still going to get messed up, if something exists and you dont believe in it, it still exists
yes, but not believing in an actual PROVEN fact and then experiencing its consequences is much different...and the examples that you used are proven facts...such as listening to music too loud will damage your ears. not believing in something that is common knowledge is ignorance...

religion is a whole different animal.

-nate

 
if i live way out in the country and dont know the police exist and go out and kill someone im still going to jail. if i dont believe that blasting my ears with large amounts of bass will destroy my ears, my ears are still going to get messed up, if something exists and you dont believe in it, it still exists
Counter thought: I still have yet to see anyone who can produce viable proof of a heaven or hell. It's still based on faith and one's own interpetation. That is probably why I love the South Park episodes where God is depicted as this short alien creature and everyone just stares at him/her/it in this dumbfounded manner.

And as for believing that excessive bass will kill your hearing and choosing to be ignorant about it... We have multiple studies that prove excessive sound will destroy the hairs in your ears that detect the flucuating pressure that is sound. We have a direct correlation between the 2. You can reproduce the effect over and over again with a minute chance of error; try doing that with anything occuring after death minus rigor mortis. There are numerous people who have visions, see ghosts, etc., but there is a lack of reproducible results by an independent 3rd party not associated with either side.

 
Stand up, grab the knife out of the kitchen, and cut off your middle finger. Or don't...
Whatever you did - you did it because that's what you chose to do.

You stated two things that are not intertwined. Just because this diety 'knows' what you are going to do doesn't mean it is forcing you to do it.

You are as free as your mind allows you to be.

As for this and the rest, I'm atheist. I go my way, and let everyone else go theirs, I harbor no ill will toward any belief structure so long as they don't try to impose it upon me.
"We cannot see past the decisions we do not understand" (The Matrix: Reloaded). Say what you will about the movie(s), but that statement is quite true, especially pertaining to everyday events -- if we believe there is no reason for something to happen, we will be unable to move beyond it.

I too am an atheist, but I arrived at my beliefs through a historical study of religion. "Religion is the opiate of masses" (Karl Marx). While Marx may have been naive in his belief that humanity could rule itself in a society such as he described (ie. Marxism), he was right about religion. Yet I feel that he failed to grasp the importance of his own statement. Religion exists at its core as a result of our inability to explain things. It is much easier to simply state, "it is God's will," than to look for the fundamental reason something has happened. This translates into the modern day use of religion and faith as a tool to comfort us in times of sorrow. When we lose a loved one, it is much easier to accept and deal with this loss by believing that we will some day meet up with them again in the afterlife. In this manor, religion is an opiate.

I only take issue with religious people when they attempt to force their beliefs upon me, or when they commit crimes (as defined by the general concensus of crime outlined in our laws) in the name of religion. I merely post this all because I rather enjoy these type of debates.

EDIT: I noticed that somebody claimed that atheists do not believe in anything. This is not true; atheists merely do not believe in the existance of a higher being.

a·the·istn.

One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
 
awalbert, I agree mostly with waht you say, however I think you are actually taking Marx's quote about religion slightly out of context (let alone the fact that it is slightly misquoted, but whatever). Marx was referring to his concepts that social institutions, including religion were merely aspects of social control imposed on a proletariat by a faltering bouguoise class to retain the dwindling power. A way of justifying to the workers why they had to put up with injustices. Sort of a - if you put up with it now, you'll be rewarded in teh afterlife.

Why do we have religion? Depending on what school of thought you associate with, you may believe that it is a way of explaining things we just don't understand. I look at it partially as that, but in other ways as well. It forms a basis for ideology for people to identify with. A relatively simple basis, with simple ideas and beliefs to allow people to group together witl simialr interests and ideas. It lets people identify with their peers, as well as explain things that are otherwise unexplainable. You have these systems of ideas for people to associate under to explain the natural world. Many argue that with teh advent of more scientific knowledge, we are often losing the religious basis for our understanding of the world. Some might even argue that science is the new religion //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 
religion just has way too many contradictions for me to believe in it. with all of these different religions in the world, and certain people from each group claiming that their religion is 'the one true religion' (which is what someone i know personally said about catholicism), i really have no reason to believe that any of them are true. this guy who said that catholicism is the one true religion called other religions 'tools for people to do good.' wow...that pissed me off. kinda cocky imho.

some more food for thought...

people THANK god when good things happen (like when they survive a catastrophe, a house fire or something), but why can't they BLAME him when something bad happens? this i do not understand. when people survive an ordeal where some people die and others live, the survivors say 'i'd like to thank god' blah blah blah, but why doesn't anyone blame him for the losses? i don't understand.

-nate

 
Christianity is NOT religion by any means, It is TRUTH to me! Religion is man made. Christ is not. I'm not pushing anything down anyone's throat. If it is forced it is never going to be sincere. I really get upset with those churches that are like "Turn or Burn". That is not true Christianity. If you are into doubting Christ and the Bible, then all the more reason to at least look into it from an atheist's stand point. Read the book Case For Christ. A true atheist, former Pulitzer prize winning writer for the Chciago Tribune went out to prove Jesus and the Bible wrong. It is a good book even if you don't ever want to believe. Not all of us are weird Bible carrying, message condemning people. I stand up for what I believe sure, but I also respect others views and ideas just as much. I probably have more crap in my life than most but it doesn't mean you are a hypocrite just for believing in someone like Christ. Don't let the Jimmy Swaggart's and Tele-Evangelists be the reason you don't like Christians. The ones who preach it down your throat or annoy you with it, aren't the true Christians the Bible talks about anyways. I cannot personally change anyone's view nor do I want to. I just simply think it should be on you as an individual to find that out yourself.

 
awalbert, I agree mostly with waht you say, however I think you are actually taking Marx's quote about religion slightly out of context (let alone the fact that it is slightly misquoted, but whatever). Marx was referring to his concepts that social institutions, including religion were merely aspects of social control imposed on a proletariat by a faltering bouguoise class to retain the dwindling power. A way of justifying to the workers why they had to put up with injustices. Sort of a - if you put up with it now, you'll be rewarded in teh afterlife. Why do we have religion? Depending on what school of thought you associate with, you may believe that it is a way of explaining things we just don't understand. I look at it partially as that, but in other ways as well. It forms a basis for ideology for people to identify with. A relatively simple basis, with simple ideas and beliefs to allow people to group together witl simialr interests and ideas. It lets people identify with their peers, as well as explain things that are otherwise unexplainable. You have these systems of ideas for people to associate under to explain the natural world. Many argue that with teh advent of more scientific knowledge, we are often losing the religious basis for our understanding of the world. Some might even argue that science is the new religion //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif
Well put. Funny how the regimes who claimed to be "marxist" often used the "if you put up with it now, you'll be rewarded later in life" idea, not so dissimilar to what Marx himself was calling an opiate. I think religion and other such institutions were often used as methods of social control in much of the world (and in many places still are), though this was a product of a select few people deciding to make claims that they were following God's will and therefore others should do their bidding (it's a bit more complex than that, but I think you get the idea).

Religion may have started as a method for explaining the unknown, but it has today become more of a crutch to lean on in times of pain.

I believe that Jesus Christ was an excelent man, who led a very admirable life. He was so unusually kind and believed so strongly in things in a time of doubt that many people thought he could not be a regular person; he was thought after his death to have been the "son of God". I don't agree with the notion that he was anything other than human, but this is just one aspect of modern religion to consider.

 
You no I posted that link in the 5 forums I go to every day. Out of the 5 this was the most muchure. I’m really enjoying the comments posted here from both sides. Even though I didn’t have a debate in mind when I posted the link.

 

Take care

Josh

 
I keep my mouth shut and respect everyone's view until they are wrong...But on the religious side of things you can't be wrong. Everyone is wrong in every other religion's eyes. I am a christian. I believe in good, I don't carry around my bible, and I cuss, used to smoke and do everything everyone else does too. That is my flaw but at 16 it is hard to follow in god's footsteps. I think it is immature to bash someone because the put a link to a christian forum. You saw Christian Forum in the title to this thread, but yet you entered and still had something to say. Kind of funny how when there is a thread about god everyone throws a fuss, but then we have a thread on porn and everyone is drooling......

 
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