Capacitors, their NOT what some people claim..

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

[quote name='gckless']This.

Still trying to figure out why @whitedragon551 ; disliked this.[/QUOTE]

Have a read. This information, specifically Audioholic, was one of the most knowledgeable members to ever grace the CarAudio.com forums. Also in on the fun was VWBobby and data provided by Richard Clark and David Navone. Again 2 of the most notable names in Audio history.

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/general-discussion/494901-capacitors-wheres-proof.html

 

[gstokes]

i think you're reading the marketing information. it's still just a capacitor, nothing in it is a battery. a battery would require an AGM or Gel style battery internal, which they don't have. the marketing info tries to explain the concept in simpler terms but when that happens accuracy is lost. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif the advantage is using carbon sheets instead of foil. all caps have an electrolytic fluid inside.


no, not needed for a 14.4V system. if you operate the cap bank at it's rating then yes, the regulating circuits are recommended. i use a 75W 5 ohm resistor bank to regulate charge current. it's just three 15 ohm 25W ceramic resistors in parallel.

The only danger with these cap banks is the in-rush when charging from an uncharged state. ever notice a small spark when you hook up the battery? notice how the spark gets larger when caps or big amps are involved? the ultracap banks can pull hundreds of amps in an instant. this means you need to regulate charge current. also, you want a quick disconnect on them so if you disconnect the battery you can also disconnect the cap bank. a cap bank alone will start and run the car. if you were to reconnect the battery to a discharged cap bank, you will likely weld the terminal to the post. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif for that reason, i use a MAXI fuse holder next to the cap bank. the holder gives me a place to insert the charging resistors and also a place for a 100A MAXI fuse that doubles as a quick disconnect.

wire is resistance, so keeping the cap bank close to the load will maximize it's effectiveness. this also helps with dynamics because the cap bank reacts quicker than a battery or alternator can.

the very first time i used a capacitor was for a sound system i had built in my ford escort station wagon, it was primitive but the car had a diesel engine and the engine was running when i hooked up the cap and almost stalled the engine, and i about jumped out my skin with the flash from that spark, you're never ready for an arc like that.. More interesting is the fact i learned later on about using charge resistor to avoid arcing and the capacitor was located in the engine bay providing absolutely zero benefit, we learn from our mistakes

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

yes this is where capacitors have the upper hand, quick charge and discharge. however, for audio amps, batteries are quick enough. and temperature?additional batteries are usually housed inside the cabin.

inside the cabin where it gets below freezing in the winter and above 100 deg. F in the summer? those are both outside the limits of a battery for full capacity. but i live in the northern midwest where we have below 30 in the winter and 105 deg in the summer (which translates to 120 inside the cabin).

 

[gckless 5,000+ posts]

Have a read. This information, specifically Audioholic, was one of the most knowledgeable members to ever grace the CarAudio.com forums. Also in on the fun was VWBobby and data provided by Richard Clark and David Navone. Again 2 of the most notable names in Audio history.
http://www.caraudio.com/forums/general-discussion/494901-capacitors-wheres-proof.html

I'm not reading 11 pages since page 1 is talking about the small 1F caps, which is not at all what I was talking about (unless there's stuff in there about ultracaps, which I kinda doubt). I feel you're stuck on that too. The post I quoted questioned the size of the capacitor. What I was getting at is where the thread took a turn to, 500F+ ultracap banks. They are more than useful.

 

[gstokes]

Every single link and tech article i have read including the one below claiming that capacitors don't work still does not explain the test results using the SMD AD-1 amplifier dyno, that test could have validated that the original people who pioneered the use of them, Richard Clark and Wayne Harris were incorrect in their findings.

or....

It could mean that the capacitor they were using was just too small (.8F) to provide greater benefits than just preventing the lights from dimming.

:: NANOPULSER.COM.SG ::

 

[gckless 5,000+ posts]

Every single link and tech article i have read including the one below claiming that capacitors don't work still does not explain the test results using the SMD AD-1 amplifier dyno, that test could have validated that the original people who pioneered the use of them, Richard Clark and Wayne Harris were incorrect in their findings.or....

It could mean that the capacitor they were using was just too small (.8F) to provide greater benefits than just preventing the lights from dimming.

:: NANOPULSER.COM.SG ::

This. That link is discussing the smaller caps.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

consider this: the ultracap bank i had in my Accord was masking my failing alternator. a week after i sold my car and removed the ultra caps the car died while driving because the alt wasn't charging the batteries properly. i had been noticing some voltage drop in the months before i sold my car but i figured it was a gauge issue. turns out it was actual voltage drop from my meager Alpine amps and the alt was bad. the ultracap bank was providing enough of a buffer to run my car and my system.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

I'm not reading 11 pages since page 1 is talking about the small 1F caps, which is not at all what I was talking about (unless there's stuff in there about ultracaps, which I kinda doubt). I feel you're stuck on that too. The post I quoted questioned the size of the capacitor. What I was getting at is where the thread took a turn to, 500F+ ultracap banks. They are more than useful.

The point that thread makes is once the ultracap or what ever cap you have is drained, your alternator needs to work to keep up the electrical current. If your alt cant provide a constant 14v for the audio that the cap makes up for plus what ever it needs to run thats factory in the car it will never recharge the cap. Instead the cap is just sitting there waiting to be recharged and is useless aside from filtering out noise.

This thread has turned into nothing more than an average troll at best.

 

[gstokes]

The point that thread makes is once the ultracap or what ever cap you have is drained, your alternator needs to work to keep up the electrical current. If your alt cant provide a constant 14v for the audio that the cap makes up for plus what ever it needs to run thats factory in the car it will never recharge the cap. Instead the cap is just sitting there waiting to be recharged and is useless aside from filtering out noise.
This thread has turned into nothing more than an average troll at best.

x2, as i said originally once the cap is discharged it has to recharge and that requires current flow, not just for the amp but the cap at the same time.

 

[whitedragon551 5,000+ posts]

x2, as i said originally once the cap is discharged it has to recharge and that requires current flow..

Another great takeaway is a cap, whether it be a large or small cap, is just a band aid for a larger problem. If your electrical cant supply enough current to power your amp then it cant supply enough power to keep your caps charged either.

 

[gstokes]

consider this: the ultracap bank i had in my Accord was masking my failing alternator. a week after i sold my car and removed the ultra caps the car died while driving because the alt wasn't charging the batteries properly. i had been noticing some voltage drop in the months before i sold my car but i figured it was a gauge issue. turns out it was actual voltage drop from my meager Alpine amps and the alt was bad. the ultracap bank was providing enough of a buffer to run my car and my system.

So basically the alternator had enough current to charge the caps and they would in turn provide power that the battery could not, once you pulled the caps there was not enough current to keep the battery sufficiently charged and after a period of diminishing source voltage it, died.. I'm beginning to understand, finally..

 

[gstokes]

Another great takeaway is a cap, whether it be a large or small cap, is just a band aid for a larger problem. If your electrical cant supply enough current to power your amp then it cant supply enough power to keep your caps charged either.

precisely, a bandaid for voltage drop..

It's taken us 4 pages to figure this out, the capacitor is just a bandaid for voltage drop.

Look at it like this, if there wasn't a dip in line voltage then the capacitor would never discharge.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

Another great takeaway is a cap, whether it be a large or small cap, is just a band aid for a larger problem. If your electrical cant supply enough current to power your amp then it cant supply enough power to keep your caps charged either.

that is an incorrect statement.

batteries and alternators are too slow. the large cap bank is fixing the problem inherent in batteries and alternators. it's a team effort. every part plays its role.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

you cannot escape voltage drop. where there is current, there is voltage drop. simple as that. as long as we are limited to alternators in the front and amplifiers in the rear, voltage drop will always be a problem. 12V batteries will never be capable of helping maintain 14V. only a very large cap bank can help maintain ~14V. battery banks are only capable of maintaining their float voltage: 12.5-12.8V or so.

if you want a 12.5V system, buy a bunch of batteries. if you want a 14V system, buy a H.O. alt and cap bank.

 

[gstokes]

This is what it comes down too, we are trying to minimize both voltage drop and current draw so if we can minimize voltage drop to the point that we don't need a cap to reinforce the line voltage, if we don't use the cap there is more current available to the amplifier, all the cap does is bring line voltage back up to where it normally sits and the amplifier makes it rated power, the name of the game is to do that without wasting available current on a capacitor. I don't know why people want to take to take 2 steps forward and one step back, that's what you do when you use a cap. I am done with this conversation..