Capacitor installation.

A cap makes sense under certain conditions. 99% of the systems that have a cap do not meet those conditions. As was menioned above, with the car running, the alternator is the primary source of power for all electrical components in your car including the stereo. If you are regularly drawing more current than your alt can provide you will eventually kill the alt. The primary consideration if you are having undercurrent problems, will be to upgrade the alt to a larger one. Once the alt is big enough that it can provide all the current needed, it is not uncommon to get headlight dimming still. The alt doesn't prvide full current all the time, it only produces what is needed at any giver time. When the current demand increases it takes a finite amount of time for the voltage regulator to recognize the voltage dip and increase current output. This transition will still manifest itself as headlight dimming. Many times an upgraded battery or two will fix the problem. A battery when fully charged will hold the alt voltage over a brief discharge. This brief discharge will usually be enough to mask the momentary dip in voltage as the voltage regulator catches up with demand. A cap can help wih this also since it can provide current faster than a battery due to its lower internal resistance. A cap can only provide its current for an instant, but in this case that instant is all you need for the alt to catch up. Notice that this is very different than expecting a cap to make up for the fact that your alt is fully tapped out. If your alt is overtaxed, only a bigger alt will fix that.

 
Helotaxi, even in the situation you're describing, does a cap really make sense?

The main symptom you've noted is dimming headlights. If the headlights are dimming because of the limitations of the voltage regulator, and not because of an overtaxed alt, then are they really a problem? And if they are a problem, is a large capacitor way back at the amplifier the best solution? Smaller capacitors, wired into the headlight circuit, would be more effective.

The real question is whether the loss of voltage from the limitation of the voltage regulator makes an AUDIBLE difference in the amplifier's output, and whether a capacitor will improve it. I don't know for certain, but I doubt it. Otherwise a cap is just an expensive and inefficient band-aid for dimming headlights.

 
Hey guys
You know, this forum isn't really meant for a lot of opinionated fools mouthing off and talking crap about things they seem to know absolutely nothing about.

A capacitor is a very good addition to any system that uses lots of power.

An amp needs a steady flow of power to operate at optimum effeciency. Most car batteries cant deliver that power, especially due to the fact that that one battery has to power other things like your headlights, or electrics in your engine.

Distortion created from a lack of power to your amp is MUCH worse than distortion gained from playing speakers too loud. A cap sorts that problem out and will give you better sounding bass and longer lasting speakers and amps.

Now, smartasses. All you guys who said to throw the cap away and all that bs, give me some insight into your deluded opinions, or rather just keep quiet.
Incorrect Imbicile.

nG

 
Helotaxi, even in the situation you're describing, does a cap really make sense?
The main symptom you've noted is dimming headlights. If the headlights are dimming because of the limitations of the voltage regulator, and not because of an overtaxed alt, then are they really a problem? And if they are a problem, is a large capacitor way back at the amplifier the best solution? Smaller capacitors, wired into the headlight circuit, would be more effective.

The real question is whether the loss of voltage from the limitation of the voltage regulator makes an AUDIBLE difference in the amplifier's output, and whether a capacitor will improve it. I don't know for certain, but I doubt it. Otherwise a cap is just an expensive and inefficient band-aid for dimming headlights.
No it usually won't make an audible difference. But in most cases where the alt is overtaxed, upgrading the alt doesn't make an audible difference either. Dimming lights is a symptom of a voltage drop. For the amp to run at its best it needs steady voltage and an adequate supply of current. Adding a small cap to the headlight circuit will merely mask the dimming of the headlights, they'll still dim but it will appear as more of a gradual dimming rather than the typical flicker seen with amp draw dimming. Adding a larger cap to the charging system will allow the votage regulator a moment to catch up with demand without the voltage dropping appreciably thus providing the amp with the stable voltage and adequate current that it needs to work its best.

If you shop around and give eBay a shot, you can get a couple farads of capacitance for not a lot of money. The old style round electrolytic capacitors (not the square style carbon or hybrid type) have a very low ESR and as such are about as close to 100% efficient as anything could be. Finally, your car is one giant parallel circuit. As long as you have taken proper measures o ensure that you have minimal resistance in the power and ground paths (the first thing that you should consider when installing an aftermarket system anyway) it won't matter where the caps are mounted in relation to anything else. The effect will be seen all through the charging system.

 
If you're really comparing capacitors favorably to batteries for "a steady flow of power", then it appears you're also talking crap about something you know nothing about. There is no comparison at all between a battery and a capacitor in terms of how much steady current they can provide. This is incredibly easy to see for yourself: take a headlight bulb and connect it to a charged capacitor. Time how long it takes for the bulb to go out. You'll find that the capacitor is completely discharged in a matter of seconds. You won't have to bother doing the same test by connecting the bulb to a battery; obviously the battery can provide steady power for a much, much, much longer period of time.
Now, from reading your post it seems likely that you, like many others, think the battery is the main source of power for the vehicle electrical system. If that were true, then capacitors wouldn't even have a theoretical benefit, because a capacitor does not create power. It can only store it. It can never hold a higher charge than the voltage source it's connected to, nor can it have a lower charge than the voltage source it's connected to. The instant the capacitor drops below the battery's voltage (which would happen as soon as any load is placed on the cap) current begins to flow from the battery to recharge it. So the cap might as well not be in the system, since the battery can hold its charge for a much longer time than the cap can under any load.

However, the battery is not the main power source for the system. While the vehicle is running, the alternator is the power source. This is where the capacitor, in theory, becomes a benefit. The alternator produces a higher voltage than the battery, and the capacitor can charge to that level. So the battery doesn't provide any current at all while the engine is running, until the point where so much current is being drawn that the alternator reaches its limit and its output voltage drops. Once the voltage level drops below about 12.8 volts, the battery starts to discharge. So the benefit of the capacitor is that it can release its stored charge after the voltage drops below what the alternator usually provides, until the point where the battery starts to discharge. Once the battery begins discharging, the capacitor has used up its benefit: it CANNOT produce current at that point. It becomes useless, and if the load doesn't change, the battery will eventually drain.

The capacitor may have some benefit for the amplifier in this case: if there's a sudden, very brief demand for current beyond what the alternator can provide, which doesn't last so long that it drains the capacitor and the battery has to take over. Remember that a capacitor doesn't really store very much power! If the demand on the alternator continues for any length of time, the capacitor is useless. We're talking about lengths of time under 1 second here. Now, very short-term demands for current do exist when playing music, so in theory the capacitor can have some value. But it's highly debateable whether it makes an audible difference. I do know that lots and lots and lots of marketing money goes into selling capacitors, yet I've never seen a cap manufacturer invest in a real, controlled test that shows an audible difference when using their product. If someone knows of such a test, please link it.

Some people will promote capacitors as a way to reduce the strain on the alternator. I had a customer with an audio system under 1000 watts, and her alternator failed. I doubt the system had anything to do with the alternator's failure, but whatever. She had it replaced, and the shop that she bought it from refused to provide a warranty unless she added a capacitor to the system. That shows that even vehicle electrical system "experts" are muddled in their thinking about capacitors, because as you can see from what you've read above, a capacitor does nothing at all UNTIL the alternator is already overloaded! If the alternator can hold its normal voltage level, there's no current provided by the cap. It's only when the voltage drops, because of a high demand on the alternator, that the cap begins to do anything at all in the system.
they just wanted to sell her a cap

 
This is an excellent accumulation of Richard Clark's own breakdown of the (non) benefits of common "stiffening" capacitors as used for this purpose:

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=010990

This is also an excellent (MUCH shorter) summary:

http://p205.ezboard.com/fcaraudioknowledgefrm7.showMessage?topicID=33.topic

There are many more, including RC's own real-time arguments with some pretty tough adversaries in 2004 here (this one will take a while to dig through):

http://www.audiogroupforum.com/csforum/showthread.php?t=4045&page=3

 
"IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP?

 

My question exactly. Marketing is the reason why people buy caps. In many cases, upgrading wiring will help your system get the maximum transfer of current. Once that has been reached, adding a capacitor may have a minor effect on your system. 50W over the course of a second is not a lot of power considering an amplifier may draw 2000W to put out 1400 watts. Let's look at the situation from a resources standpoint.

 

Alternator 80 amps

Car accessories (minus stereo) 40 amps

A large Car Audio system (DRAWS ) ~200 amps AT FULL OUTPUT

 

In this case, you have 240 amps of draw, but only 80 amps of current from the alternator. In your case, you need 160 amps x 12 volts or or let's say 1920 watts of energy. Since a cap stores 50W, how much of a difference do you think it's going to make? A cap is basically a peashooter. W+e need a Howitzer cannon here, to do the job well.

 

Also, Once a cap is discharged, where does it get it's power from? The alternator, which is already overloaded. Once a cap is discharged, it's worthless. Like SWEZ says, “..The cap already shot its wad, an does limp til recharged…” I’m not so certain I will allow him to babysit my kids, but you get the drift. (I never said it quiet like that... and oh...I'm great with kids!)

 

SO, WHAT IS A CAPACITOR GOOD FOR?

 

1. Audio Jewelry- impress chicks with large cylindrical shiny thingy

2. Extra weight in winter time

3. A very POOR... BUT expensive distribution block

4. A projectile in the event of a crash

5. Rolling pin--for cooking purposes

6. A neat thing to tell your friend, "..Hey man, lick the top of this.."

Makes sence

 
While I generally agree with his conclusion, RCs "tests" usually have some pretty serious flaws as far as scientific method goes. If you are smart on the matter at hand, you can look at his setup and not only see that the result is going to be exactly what he wants it to be but also quickly note ways to improve the "test" to actually "test" something and provide solid empirical evidence rather than a mere stunt in the guise of a valid scientific experiment.

 
Was the following truly meant as a serious post?? For the sake of argument I'll assume so and respond accordingly:

Hey guys
You know, this forum isn't really meant for a lot of opinionated fools mouthing off and talking crap about things they seem to know absolutely nothing about.
Then why did you insist on logging on and doing exactly that?
A capacitor is a very good addition to any system that uses lots of power.An amp needs a steady flow of power to operate at optimum effeciency. Most car batteries cant deliver that power, especially due to the fact that that one battery has to power other things like your headlights, or electrics in your engine.
Just like a capacitor a car's battery is a storage device and nothing more. While it is true a cap can discharge that stored energy more quickly than a typical battery due to lower internal resistance at the end of the day it is no more than energy storage and nothing more. If you are somehow under the mistaken impression that a car's battery is actually supplying that energy then you're more foolish than the other respondants to this thread whom you are calling foolish. Where, then, did that energy contained within the battery and/or capacitor originate? I'll leave it to you to figure that out.
Distortion created from a lack of power to your amp is MUCH worse than distortion gained from playing speakers too loud. A cap sorts that problem out and will give you better sounding bass and longer lasting speakers and amps.
I would truly like to see a detailed explanation as to how a clipped audio signal being presented to the drivers intended on reproducing said signal is anymore detrimental to the drivers in question coming from one source as opposed to another. (a clipped signal being the cause of the "distortion" in case you were unaware...)
Now, smartasses. All you guys who said to throw the cap away and all that bs, give me some insight into your deluded opinions, or rather just keep quiet.
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif'Nuff said.

 
"IF A BATTERY = 2,200 CAPS, THEN WHY BUY A (PUNY) CAP? ...
This basically sums up the situation into which 99% of all car audio caps are thrust. In these situations they are a band-aid for dimming lights at best and less than worthless (since you have to pay for them) at worst. If you understand the relationship between the components in a car's electrical system and what the roles and limitations of each part are, you would understand that in the right circumstances a cap can have a role in a solid charging system. The problem is that the overwhelming majority of people don't understand all that and expect a cap to be a magic solution to all that is wrong with their current supply system.

 
Thanks Kaezoo, that was a rather informative reply.

It's a pity I had to insult people and wait weeks and go out and get a cap added to my system and find everything out for myself before somebody gives me a proper answer.

That's why I said, this forum is not really for opinionated fools who give advice like "beat your friend with the cap and throw it away".

So I guess it's settled then. Capacitors do work. I mean be serious now. Nobody with a system as loud as mine is going to listen to it at full volume all the time, so youre not gonna need a cap then. But now and again , you are going to want to put it that loud to show friends or other car audio enthusiasts, or for sound competitions. That's when a cap comes in. For those short times the system drains more power than can be supplied by the alternator or battery.

So thanks once again for your reply Kaezoo.

I would still like to know why all those other fools were mouthing off about how kak a cap is and how i should throw it away...

 
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