Are rights objective?

thadman
10+ year member

CarAudio.com Elite
Under what reference frame should rights considered to be significant, that is “to serve a purpose”?

“Nature hath made men so equal in the faculties of body and mind as that, though there be found one man sometimes manifestly stronger in body or of quicker mind than another, yet when all is reckoned together the difference between man and man is not so considerable as that one man can thereupon claim to himself any benefit to which another may not pretend as well as he. For as to the strength of body, the weakest has strength enough to kill the strongest, either by secret machination or by confederacy with others that are in the same danger with himself.

And as to the faculties of the mind, setting aside the arts grounded upon words, and especially that skill of proceeding upon general and infallible rules, called science, which very few have and but in few things, as being not a native faculty born with us, nor attained, as prudence, while we look after somewhat else, I find yet a greater equality amongst men than that of strength. For prudence is but experience, which equal time equally bestows on all men in those things they equally apply themselves unto.”

Are not rocks indifferent to your opinion of them? Are they able to even perceive your opinion? Do they differentiate with respect to your behavior? If you tossed one leisurely into a pond or if you hurled one into a plane of concrete, would it not be indifferent? Are rocks able to act in a similar capacity to a man as defined able by Hobbes? Are they able to communicate amongst themselves?

The individuals within a society function as a network. We can demonstrate this with the aid of an example.

Let us suppose an individual lived singularly on a deserted Island. He would be responsible for his own water, food and shelter. He would be left with these tasks all of his days, whether they be fishing, collecting coconuts, or building a hut. He would have little time for leisure and many would suggest his life undesirable.

Let us now suppose that three individuals lived together on a deserted island. The first individual might be responsible for the water (gathering coconuts, collecting rainwater), the second might be responsible for the food (hunting, fishing, etc), and the third might be responsible for building and maintaining the shelter (collecting firewood, replacing worn members of the shelter’s structure, etc). The allocation of these tasks among the individuals is arbitrary. Assuming they all fulfilled their specific tasks, they may have more time for leisure and many would suggest their lives as more desirable relative to the singular individual because of this.

Let us now suppose the first individual murders the second and third individuals in order to gain more water/food. Would not the network cease to function efficiently, specifically would it not return to the state of the singular individual?

What determines the interaction between the individuals living on the island? (hint: Rights)

We may conclude that rights exist for the purpose of maintaining the harmonious interaction between the individuals living on the island. This is analogous to code, which is implemented within a computer’s operating system to maintain the harmonious interaction between of all of the parts of the computer (CPU, RAM, hard disk, etc.).

A question now arises, “What is Harmonious Interaction”? Obviously it is optimal, but it is undefined.

For a system with N variables, how can we define the optimal or ideal solution? Intuitively we would maximize the system, but what if all variables defining the system cannot be maximized simultaneously? Should we maximize the first dimension, the second dimension, the N dimension? (Answer: We Can’t). There is no singular optimal solution, for a Pareto optimal exists under these circumstances.

Pareto Optimal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_efficiency

We can visualize a Pareto optimal in 2 dimensions as a line that crosses the X and Y axis. We will restrict our analysis to (01 for X,Y) for ease of explanation. These restrictions are arbitrary and we could just as easily extend our argument to N dimensions. At (0,1), the Y dimension is maximized and the X dimension is minimized. At (1,0), the X dimension is maximized and the Y dimension is minimized. Any points that exist along this line are optimal or ideal solutions.

Let’s suppose an individual approaches an Engineer and requests the “optimal airplane”. The Engineer would be left with a question, “What is optimal”?

What is the airplane expected to do?

How far is the airplane expected to travel? How fast is the airplane expected to travel? How much fuel is the plane expected to consume? How many passengers is the airplane expected to carry? What payload is the airplane expected to carry? Under what conditions is the plane expected to take off and land? Etc.

Assuming this, an Engineer could create an optimal or ideal design that performed poorly.

Let’s suppose the engineer was designing a fuel tanker for inter-air-fueling between military aircraft. He allocated 25% of its weight towards fuel, 25% of its weight towards the structure, 25% of its weight towards its payload, and 25% of its weight towards its armor.

Assuming all of the conditions were satisfied, an optimal design could be achieved and this could be an optimal solution.

However, let’s suppose the enemy developed a new anti-aircraft system that penetrated the airplanes armor. Under these circumstances, the engineer’s optimal design would not be an optimal solution.

Although a Pareto optimal exists, its presence does not guarantee the optimal solution because an element of subjectivity is required that is independent of the function (ie not objective). A subjective analysis is required to determine which variables should be maximized/minimized in relation to each other (ie distribution of variables), therefore the solution is subjective. A point amongst the Pareto optimal must be determined for systems where the number of dimensions can be defined by N>1.

How does this relate to our network?

One might make the argument that because a Pareto optimal exists, that the objective solution (ie truth) must also exist. Although the design for an optimal or ideal network (ie state, society, etc) exists, it is a Pareto optimal. It is not the optimal or ideal solution.

I don’t think many could refute Plato’s definition of the “Ideal State” described in his most epic work, The Republic. However, I expect many to disagree with his assertion of strict censorship and control.

An analysis of the goals of society must be undertaken if we are to determine the optimal solution within the range of optimal designs. THIS is subjective, and therefore the solution (ie rights) are also subjective.

One might suggest that an individual inherently possesses the desire for security. For this reason, he believes rights are inherent to him. However, the desire for security implies the interaction within a network.

The singular individual is not in possession of rights. They serve no purpose, for he is not functioning within a network. He cannot organize and communicate and thus form a network, because there are no others to organize or communicate with. Rights imply interaction within a network and therefore are inherent to the network, not the individual.

One may reach the conclusion that only conscious individuals existing within a society (ie awareness) are in possession of rights and that rights are subjective and may exist along a Pareto optimal.
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I don't know where you got that crock of shit but it's total fail. I suppose you're just trolling.

What determines the interaction between the individuals living on the island? (hint: Rights)
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/bsflag.gif.21f42eccd34b7d1eb1608fb1b59b69c3.gifFalse. The answer is "Power", not "rights".

We may conclude that rights exist for the purpose of maintaining the harmonious interaction between the individuals living on the island.

...

The singular individual is not in possession of rights. They serve no purpose, for he is not functioning within a network. He cannot organize and communicate and thus form a network, because there are no others to organize or communicate with. Rights imply interaction within a network and therefore are inherent to the network, not the individual.

One may reach the conclusion that only conscious individuals existing within a society (ie awareness) are in possession of rights and that rights are subjective

Totally wrong!!! False premis, circular logic to a long winded false conclusion. Rights are the essense of the individual. Endowed by the Creator. An individual alone on the island is in full possesion of all his rights. No "network" is required. Once the analogy chages to the three people on the island it is "power" that determines the network, not "rights". Rights and power are usually at odds, as they are in the example above.

Everything else posted above is vomit. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/terrible.gif.e9b53a6590ea930b9d2be5020e6e9cd6.gif

 
Totally wrong!!! False premis, circular logic to a long winded false conclusion. Rights are the essense of the individual. Endowed by the Creator. An individual alone on the island is in full possesion of all his rights. No "network" is required. Once the analogy chages to the three people on the island it is "power" that determines the network, not "rights". Rights and power are usually at odds, as they are in the example above.

Everything else posted above is vomit. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/terrible.gif.e9b53a6590ea930b9d2be5020e6e9cd6.gif
Typically people employ two different arguments to defend a philosophical basis for "rights." One is a theistic/moral argument (see Locke's 2nd treatise), the other is a utilitarian argument (see Mill's On Justice). Clearly you've chosen the former, and the OP has chosen the latter.

However, im not sure ive seen someone defend a moral argument for rights and still say that they are not objective? You say rights are not objective and yet they are endowed by a creator? Would that be to say that the creator endows different individuals with different rights?

 
Typically people employ two different arguments to defend a basis for "rights." One is a theistic/moral argument (see Locke's 2nd treatise), the other is a utilitarian argument (see Mill's On Justice). Clearly you've chosen the former, and the OP has chosen the latter.
However, im not sure ive seen someone defend a moral argument for rights and still say that they are not objective? You say rights are not objective and yet they are endowed by a creator? Would that be to say that the creator endows different individuals with different rights?
No. Although I personally believe in a thesitic view, the "theist" is not needed. Rights are "naturally" occuring. You have a right to breathe. Is that right granted to you by the state or network? Is your right to breathe different if you're a jew or hindu? No. You simply require it, "naturally", it is your right. To be denied that right, or other rights, is against your "nature" and therefore "illegal" or "imoral". The term is irrelevent, the fact that you will fight to the death to defend that "right" is not debatable, objective or subjective. To argue that your right to breathe, or sleep or mate is dependent on a "network" or government is absurd.

It is not a question of morality, religion, community or politics. Rights simply exist as a part of an individual. You cannot have one without the other.

Claiming "rights" exist to "serve a purpose" is sugar coating a turd of logic.

The Nature and Source of Our Rights "The principles on which we engaged, of which the charter of our independence is the record, were sanctioned by the laws of our being, and we but obeyed them in pursuing undeviatingly the course they called for. It issued finally in that inestimable state of freedom which alone can ensure to man the enjoyment of his equal rights." --Thomas Jefferson to Georgetown Republicans, 1809. ME 16:349

"Man [is] a rational animal, endowed by nature with rights and with an innate sense of justice." --Thomas Jefferson to William Johnson, 1823. ME 15:441

"A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:209, Papers 1:134

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson: Legal Argument, 1770. FE 1:376

"What is true of every member of the society, individually, is true of them all collectively; since the rights of the whole can be no more than the sum of the rights of the individuals." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393

"Nothing... is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48

"The evidence of [the] natural right [of expatriation], like that of our right to life, liberty, the use of our faculties, the pursuit of happiness, is not left to the feeble and sophistical investigations of reason, but is impressed on the sense of every man. We do not claim these under the charters of kings or legislators, but under the King of Kings." --Thomas Jefferson to John Manners, 1817. ME 15:124

"Natural rights [are] the objects for the protection of which society is formed and municipal laws established." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1797. ME 9:422

"Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?" --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVIII, 1782. ME 2:227

"Questions of natural right are triable by their conformity with the moral sense and reason of man." --Thomas Jefferson: Opinion on French Treaties, 1793. ME 3:235

"It is a principle that the right to a thing gives a right to the means without which it could not be used, that is to say, that the means follow their end." --Thomas Jefferson: --Thomas Jefferson: Report on Navigation of the Mississippi, 1792. ME 3:180

"The right to use a thing comprehends a right to the means necessary to its use, and without which it would be useless." --Thomas Jefferson to William Carmichael, 1790. ME 8:72

"The Declaration of Independence... [is the] declaratory charter of our rights, and of the rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Adams Wells, 1819. ME 15:200

"Some other natural rights... [have] not yet entered into any declaration of rights." --Thomas Jefferson to John W. Eppes, 1813. ME 13:272

"I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:282

The Right to Life and Liberty

"The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." --Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:211, Papers 1:135

"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." --Thomas Jefferson to Isaac H. Tiffany, 1819.

"That liberty [is pure] which is to go to all, and not to the few or the rich alone." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio Gates, 1798. ME 9:441

"In a government bottomed on the will of all, the life and liberty of every individual citizen becomes interesting to all." --Thomas Jefferson: 5th Annual Message, 1805. ME 3:390

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." --Thomas Jefferson to Archibald Stuart, 1791. ME 8:276

"Being myself a warm zealot for the attainment and enjoyment by all mankind of as much liberty as each may exercise without injury to the equal liberty of his fellow citizens, I have lamented that... the endeavors to obtain this should have been attended with the effusion of so much blood." --Thomas Jefferson to Jean Nicholas Demeunier, 1795. FE 7:13
 
No. Although I personally believe in a thesitic view, the "theist" is not needed. Rights are "naturally" occuring. You have a right to breathe. Is that right granted to you by the state or network? Is your right to breathe different if you're a jew or hindu? No. You simply require it, "naturally", it is your right. To be denied that right, or other rights, is against your "nature" and therefore "illegal" or "imoral". The term is irrelevent, the fact that you will fight to the death to defend that "right" is not debatable, objective or subjective. To argue that your right to breathe, or sleep or mate is dependent on a "network" or government is absurd.
It is not a question of morality, religion, community or politics. Rights simply exist as a part of an individual. You cannot have one without the other.

Claiming "rights" exist to "serve a purpose" is sugar coating a turd of logic.
Illegal and immoral are synonymous?; so anything considered immoral should be illegal? Should cheating on your wife be illegal?

After seeing your reasoning, i assume you don't think much of a right to trial by jury? or a right to be free from double jeopardy?

Is our supreme court wrong to limit speech if it incites "imminent lawless action?"

Your simple breathing example works well for your purposes but i think a closer look at specifically how a government interacts with society requires a call for many other rights simply on a pragmatic basis. And btw, J.S. Mill is one of the most influential political theorists of the last two hundred years. He is taught in probably every undergrad constitutional law class and has been referenced by numerous supreme court justices. I hope you have at least read On Liberty before regarding it's arguments as "a turd of logic."

"Under the law of nature, all men are born free, every one comes into the world with a right to his own person, which includes the liberty of moving and using it at his own will. This is what is called personal liberty, and is given him by the Author of nature, because necessary for his own sustenance." --Thomas Jefferson: Legal Argument, 1770. FE 1:376

"Nothing... is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:48
Jefferson was heavily influenced by Locke. That's why you see this sort of perspective in the Declaration and not the constitution. Jefferson wrote the declaration but had little input in the constitution. Of course, just because it was his opinion, does not necessarily make it so.

 
Illegal and immoral are synonymous?; so anything considered immoral should be illegal? Should cheating on your wife be illegal?
//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif
After seeing your reasoning, i assume you don't think much of a right to trial by jury? or a right to be free from double jeopardy?

Is our supreme court wrong to limit speech if it incites "imminent lawless action?"
This thread went from absurd to moronic.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif
Your simple breathing example works well for your purposes but i think a closer look at specifically how a government interacts with society requires a call for many other rights simply on a pragmatic basis.
No. Rights prexist government.
And btw, J.S. Mill is one of the most influential political theorists of the last two hundred years. He is taught in probably every undergrad constitutional law class and has been referenced by numerous supreme court justices. I hope you have at least read On Liberty before regarding it's arguments as "a turd of logic."
What? Is Mills the OP? I quoted the OP. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif
Jefferson was heavily influenced by Locke. That's why you see this sort of perspective in the Declaration and not the constitution. Jefferson wrote the declaration but had little input in the constitution. Of course, just because it was his opinion, does not necessarily make it so.
Wow! Really? You don't say? That's facinating! I've never heard that before. You're so smart! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wow.gif.23d729408e9177caa2a0ed6a2ba6588e.gif [/sarcasm]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 
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