Are Kickers Overated?

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

Ok...we shall talk dominance right now //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
2006 dB Drag finals...

Extreme 1- Alan Dante= Digital Designs Z series

Extreme 2-Edge Audio (kyle)=Pioneer SPL Series

Extreme 3/4-Extreme Audio=Fi Car Audio BTL

Extreme 5+-Edge Audio (Scott)= Pioneer SPL series

Street A- Tuan XS SPL=SoloX

Street B-Brad Figuard=Digital Designs

Street C-

StreetMax 1/2-Cactus Sounds- Cactus Sounds

Streetmax 3/4-High Output Audio-Digital Designs

Super Street 1/2-Budwieser=T3 Audio

Super Street 1/2 NW-Alan Lake- Soundtream

Super Street 3/4-Gorman Casidy=(not sure if he was running T3 or RE at finals)

Super Street 5+-Steve Cook=RE MT

The point is man no one woofer will dominate. Its install to install. And saying that you would take the Kickers NO MATTER WHAT. Is ignorant in my eyes. You have to use what will work with you. And saying that the Kickers would win the majority is also a very ignorant statement. As you can see...only 1 SoloX placed first at finals, and I wouldn't of made this post had you not tried to state that Kickers Dominate...sure they have there place as does DD, RE, Fi, T3, Memphis, Cactus Sounds...etc.

Its all about what works here and now. Having loyalty is a big deal in this industry but sometimes you have to live in the real world man.

Edit: this is chevyaudio. And I couldnt remember StreetC..and someone correct me if I am wrong. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Tuan used 9910's, not solo x's.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Tuan used 9910's, not solo x's.

kinda looks like DD's are the only clear dominator...

 

[mrray13 10+ year member]

What advantage specifically?The solo-x 18 is the only sub I see with any real advantage over the competition (cone area).

cone area is the primary advantage. be it the 10, 12 or 18, they all three have an cone area advantage over similiar sized subs.

and everyone, understand this, i'm not dogging DD (especially DD, which is very dominate in it's own right), re, Fi or any other brand. i'm jsut standing behind kicker. this forum adn several others tend to think kicker is junk and it's very far from it.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/peace.gif.2db28b618ed8d1964ebbe2f5021d2c39.gif

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

cone area is the primary advantage. be it the 10, 12 or 18, they all three have an cone area advantage over similiar sized subs.
and everyone, understand this, i'm not dogging DD (especially DD, which is very dominate in it's own right), re, Fi or any other brand. i'm jsut standing behind kicker. this forum adn several others tend to think kicker is junk and it's very far from it.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/peace.gif.2db28b618ed8d1964ebbe2f5021d2c39.gif

i think what he ment was...

yes... the squares have a surface area advantage...

but see the square subs sacrafice some excursion capability to do it... a square

cone doesn't distribute force from the coil evenly... (round coil vs square cone)

so at higher levels of excursion the square becomes unstable and probably fails before a round sub will...

the reason the 18 has an advantage that the smaller sizes don't, is because....

(in raw numbers, not effective piston area)...

...a 10" circle has an area of 78.5 "^2. A square has 100"^2...

...a difference of 21.5...

...a 18" circle has an area of 254.34"^2. a square has 324"^2...

... a bigger difference of 69.66...

...so from the surface area perspective the bigger the sub, the more advantageous it is to go square vs round...

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

cone area is the primary advantage. be it the 10, 12 or 18, they all three have an cone area advantage over similiar sized subs.
and everyone, understand this, i'm not dogging DD (especially DD, which is very dominate in it's own right), re, Fi or any other brand. i'm jsut standing behind kicker. this forum adn several others tend to think kicker is junk and it's very far from it.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/peace.gif.2db28b618ed8d1964ebbe2f5021d2c39.gif

The only square sub that shows any cone advantage is the 18". Any other size comparison and you could simply up-size your round sub to make up the difference. But once you reach 18" of round cone, that's it (I dont consider the jackhammer/abahn/clarion abortions in this discussion). 12 vs 12, yes the square will have more cone advantage. But Id just go out and buy a 15" round sub if it was that big of a deal to me.

As yes, as Cot mentioned, the square cone shape does mean a sacrifice in excursion capability. Hence I have almost no use for any square beside the solo-x 18. Its meant to burp at or very near tuning where excursion is minimal, and thermal power handling becomes key. Couple a strong motor capable of dissipating alot heat/power with a cone not capable of being out-done... and you hav the solo-x 18. Anything else, meh, Id just as soon go round.

Cheers. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[mrray13 10+ year member]

but in classes where your limtied by the number and size, say street a for example, you can have two tens or one twelve. upsizing does you no good. your not making up for the lost cone area. maybe you gain some excursion, but almost never enough. of course, box, power and batteries come into play as well.

i see your points and understand. and in some cases kicker might not be the way to go. if i was chasing tenths. but i'll still choose them, right or wrong. maybe at this point it's jsut the look, or my experience with them. i loved my s18x for daily. shake teh piss outa everything. i also throughly enjoyed the s10x i played with for a while in my truck. most people thought i still had my two 15 setup.

they are great subs, will do what they need to in the lanes and are backed by some of the best people in the industry/sport. so what if they are mainstreme? and yeah, they aren't the end all, be all sub. but they are definitely in the big dog leagues.

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/peace.gif.2db28b618ed8d1964ebbe2f5021d2c39.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

True, when competing and classes are judged by number of drivers, they have their advantage. I dont compete, I was merely stating in terms of a daily system. Good point.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

True, when competing and classes are judged by number of drivers, they have their advantage. I dont compete, I was merely stating in terms of a daily system. Good point.

but there are still subs that the extra surface area doesn't compensate for excursion.. as illustrated by the records above

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

but there are still subs that the extra surface area doesn't compensate for excursion.. as illustrated by the records above

In vented SPL systems, at some point the limiting factor becomes power handling, not excursion. That how DD can do so well in the lanes with relatively modest excursion capabilities. Same with solo-x, the old strokers, etc etc.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

In vented SPL systems, at some point the limiting factor becomes power handling, not excursion. That how DD can do so well in the lanes with relatively modest excursion capabilities. Same with solo-x, the old strokers, etc etc.

right but is the power handleing not directly related to the excursion?... i mean a really inefficient sub could take 10K and not put out as much as another sub taking 5 maybe i'm missing the point?

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

right but is the power handleing not directly related to the excursion?... i mean a really inefficient sub could take 10K and not put out as much as another sub taking 5 maybe i'm missing the point?

Power handling and excursion are related yes, but excursion is not everything in ported boxes.
An SPL rig is going to burn a single note tone, at or very near its enclosure's tuning point. This is where cone excursion is at its minimal (in relation to output) but enclosure efficiency is at its greatest. Hence the phenomenon less cone motion, more output.

So what this means is, when these SPL rigs are burping at that note, the enclosure is doing its best to choke cone excurison down as much as possible. It takes more power to reach xmax. This is how they can put 10, 20, even 40 kilowatts on a single speaker without it reaching its mechanical limits (xmax). Its at this point (competition, single note burp at tuning, extreme power) that thermal power handling becomes the dominate factor in speaker failure. In other words, for example it may take 50,000 watts to bottom out the sub given that single note burp, but the coil will melt in half with 25,000 watts (over a certain amount of time, usually very short burps).

The real pro's, the ones who know the products they are using intimately through thorough testing, are walking the fine between reaching both thermal limits and cone excursion at the same time.

Speaker efficiency defines how easy it is to push the speaker to its mechanical limits. This however is also largely affected by the enclosure size/type/alignment. Couple this to the fact subwoofer efficiencies aren't measured in any meaningful way and it really makes things messy. But generally speaking, a sub that excels at absorbing and dissipating massive amounts of wattage will not be very efficient due to the added mass in the coil (for increased power handling), stiffer suspension, etc. In speaker design, everything is a compromise.

That's the [very] basics of thermo-mechanics of the SPL setups these days (as I understand it), then of course there's the even more complex aspect of acoustics and wave form theory. And yet its amazing how many people think its easy to get serious loud, just slap a few name brand subs in the trunk and viola, automatic 150db. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

Its good to see you settle down and ask questions Cotjones. Nice improvement in your attitude. Cheers.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Power handling and excursion are related yes, but excursion is not everything in ported boxes.
An SPL rig is going to burn a single note tone, at or very near its enclosure's tuning point. This is where cone excursion is at its minimal (in relation to output) but enclosure efficiency is at its greatest. Hence the phenomenon less cone motion, more output.

So what this means is, when these SPL rigs are burping at that note, the enclosure is doing its best to choke cone excurison down as much as possible. It takes more power to reach xmax. This is how they can put 10, 20, even 40 kilowatts on a single speaker without it reaching its mechanical limits (xmax). Its at this point (competition, single note burp at tuning, extreme power) that thermal power handling becomes the dominate factor in speaker failure. In other words, for example it may take 50,000 watts to bottom out the sub given that single note burp, but the coil will melt in half with 25,000 watts (over a certain amount of time, usually very short burps).

The real pro's, the ones who know the products they are using intimately through thorough testing, are walking the fine between reaching both thermal limits and cone excursion at the same time.

Speaker efficiency defines how easy it is to push the speaker to its mechanical limits. This however is also largely affected by the enclosure size/type/alignment. Couple this to the fact subwoofer efficiencies aren't measured in any meaningful way and it really makes things messy. But generally speaking, a sub that excels at absorbing and dissipating massive amounts of wattage will not be very efficient due to the added mass in the coil (for increased power handling), stiffer suspension, etc. In speaker design, everything is a compromise.

That's the [very] basics of thermo-mechanics of the SPL setups these days (as I understand it), then of course there's the even more complex aspect of acoustics and wave form theory. And yet its amazing how many people think its easy to get serious loud, just slap a few name brand subs in the trunk and viola, automatic 150db. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

Its good to see you settle down and ask questions Cotjones. Nice improvement in your attitude. Cheers.

that was quite possibly the most educating post i've read yet (seriously) thanks alot for taking the time. i never really thought of it like that but it makes so much sence, i'm like gah! i was stupid

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

that was quite possibly the most educating post i've read yet (seriously) thanks alot for taking the time. i never really thought of it like that but it makes so much sence, i'm like gah! i was stupid

Glad to help out.