Another Reason For Rear Fill...

[mlstrass 5,000+ posts]

I couldn't disagree more. What I see is a lot of people recommending rear fill to add volume and give perceived surround sound. The truth is that more than 99% of these people have never sat in a truly well tuned front stage only vehicle. They all have rear fill and like it, but have never compared the two. Part of the problem with any advice over the internet is that everyone regurgitates some crap that someone else has told them, I think that is complete BS. I don't think this is even subjective...at least not to a mildly educated listener. How many high end home audio stores have you been to where they recommend running four speakers for playing back 2 channel audio? It NEVER happens yet in the car audio world everyday someone has to push this belief on other people. The real answer is to spend sometime in your car insuring that you have done the most to maximize your staging and response.
I do agree that you should do whatever makes you happy, but when the basis of a statement is that it sounds better with rear fill it is just wrong. I will stand by my previous statement and say that a car has an install problem if 2 channel audio sounds better with added rear fill.

But if that cheap rear fill gives them what they want, then that's the route they should go. Not everyone wants to spend the time/money to set up that killer front stage is all I'm saying. So there are alternatives.

And I don't believe anyone is saying that a decent set up with rear fill sounds better than a GOOD front stage, just that some have a rear fill set up that sounds good to them.

I do agree that you should do whatever makes you happy, but when the basis of a statement is that it sounds better with rear fill it is just wrong.

Again wrong in your eyes, or ears actually, but you can not tell me what "I" like. Some like Bose home audio, I think it's garbage, but I'd never tell anyone not to give it a listen as they might enjoy it.

I actually usually listen in 7 channel stereo at home, so I'm far from a purist. Did a lot of dance club stuff in the 80's and DJ'ed a little, so I'm just used to sound from all around.

I seriously wonder why all the car manufacturers spend so much time and money installing 6-10 speaker set ups in cars if it's technically "wrong". I heard a factory Boston system in a Chrysler 300 the other day and it sounded very nice, all 8 speakers I believe.

I wish the we could just all agree that there's more than one way to set up a system to meet the desired goal. Some want a KILLER front stage and some just want to fill the car with sound. Try to take that into consideration when offering advice as I really don't think a young kid putting in 3000watts worth of subs/amps is concerned about imaging, depth of stage, etc... he wants it loud so his friends can hear him a block away //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[///M5 10+ year member]

The biggest problem I have with your argument is that every single person I have ever heard promote rear fill has NEVER heard a truly well tuned front stage. In their case they are always promoting what they have and not what is really best, of course you see that a lot on some forums but I find it despicable. Even worse is when they recommend what they have read on some internet forum.

As for the cheap rear fill statement you made, we all know that if you just put that money into the fronts they will be louder & clearer than if you split the money up between the front and rears. Of course, I am making the assumption that in both scenarios the person doing the buying puts in the same diligence to make well thought out decisions in either case.

Lastly, I do agree there are more than one way to setup a system. You don't see me pushing SQ style enclosures for subs in any of my posts anywhere, but you will not see me implement anything other than one in any of my vehicles. When it comes to rear fill though, I can't idly stand by and watch people recommend what they have instead of what they would actually like if they had the chance to listen to it just once. I am a huge proponent of going out and actually listening to as much as you can before you buy.

 

[reneeb7363 10+ year member]

I never said there is rear fill in a live performance. I elluded to the spacial cues of a live performance that can't often be correctly duplicated by a automobile's two channel setup. Limitations exist in the small interiors.
You mention that the band is infront of the listener at a concert. What about the audience? If you are mid row; there will be sounds from behind as well. All sounds within the concert hall give it it's feeling and adds to more for your senses to process. Rear fill can fool the brain into feeling that there is sound eminating from all angles. Home theatre 5.1 and 7.1 are successful for a reason. I'm a 2 channel person myself, but can see both sides of the discussion. Of course; all is dependant on recording technique, micing process, mixing and the intent of the artist.

do you realize you are arguing with a brick wall??? LOL!! These guys just don't want to hear it..I have argued until I am blue in the face and CANNOT BREATHE from laughing so hard! They compare LIVE performances and yet continue to dis-regard physics and the fact that sound echos. Studio recordings and LIVE performances are different. Live you hear all the spatial cues as they happen is a very real 3D environment. Some people try to re-create that in the car... now all of a sudden it is a bad thing???? Why, because of the limitations of a Studio? Any Motor vehicle is just too small to get the natural reflective sounds you hear at a concert, so please quit trying to use that excuse. It takes processing to acheive it and rear fill IS NOT (read: shouldn't be) in Stereo. and the volume should NOT be matched to the front, refleced sounds are attenuated until inaudible or otherwise cancelled.

said it before...it's better to agree to disagree on this one... some like it, some don't and NO ONE IS RIGHT! Period!!!!

have fun arguing... oh, and Jntar... those are just a few pics of proffesional studios..I am sure I can google and find a hundred more that DO use rear speakers! MOST studios are recording in L/R format because that is what the industry demands! Very few artists wish to exclude themselves from the 99% of people that arent obsessed with the quality, or quantity, of sound eminating from their vehicles. Look where we have come since I first started competeing (locally) in '85... evolution, It happens.

 

[reneeb7363 10+ year member]

... OP said that he was listening to fm radio... that there proves it was all in his head. he was listening to music in 'stereo'

and of course women like renee are pro rear fill. i would like all women to be.

no pickup truck for me and no rear fill for me.

another sig-able post... nice one... that's funny! And I have never heard any man complain!

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

Rear fill sucks balls.

Also, you don't get more than stereo sound via FM radio... you r-tard.

nG

 

[goodstuff 10+ year member]

ok...first off let me start off by saying that I don't get the no rear fill guys...maybe that's because I have not heard a system with only fronts...

BUT... my set up is very different from most peoples...I have my 4x6 speakers in the front doors and another set of the same exact speakers that are in the trunk facing fowards...i.e towards the windshield....the speakers in the trunk are wired so that the right is on the left and left is right...what this does for me is (most of the time....depends on the recording) is make it so that the instruments sound like they are correctly placed on the soundstage.... it doesn't sound like you are sitting on the left side of the car, it sounds like you are sitting in the middle....but you still get stereo ( i.e if the sound pans back and forth quickly) from the fronts

I can't see, no matter how good the speakers are, or how they are aimed, how it would make it seem like you are sitting in the middle of the soundstage when you have speakers that are not equal distances to each other when you sit on either side of the car and not in the middle...I can see where your coming from when talking about how music is recorded with no rear fill in the studio but a car is not the same environment as a studio (try as we might, lol) hope that makes sense because it's tough to explain without pictures and or diagrams (which I'm too busy/lazy to take)

 

[ramos 5,000+ posts]

ok...first off let me start off by saying that I don't get the no rear fill guys...maybe that's because I have not heard a system with only fronts...BUT... my set up is very different from most peoples...I have my X speakers in the front doors and another set of the same exact speakers that are in the trunk facing fowards...i.e to wards the windshield....the speakers in the trunk are wired so that the right is on the left and left is right...what this does for me is (most of the time....depends on the recording) is make it so that the instruments sound like they are correctly placed on the sound stage.... it doesn't sound like you are sitting on the left side of the car, it sounds like you are sitting in the middle....but you still get stereo ( i.e if the sound pans back and forth quickly) from the fronts

I can't see, no matter how good the speakers are, or how they are aimed, how it would make it seem like you are sitting in the middle of the soundstage when you have speakers that are not equal distances to each other when you sit on either side of the car and not in the middle...I can see where your coming from when talking about how music is recorded with no rear fill in the studio but a car is not the same environment as a studio (try as we might, lol) hope that makes sense because it's tough to explain without pictures and or diagrams (which I'm too busy/lazy to take)

You lost me man //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif I'm not trying to recreate the studio . Just the music //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[dawgdan 10+ year member]

I would urge all those who argue in favor of rear-fill to attend a local SQ competition, if possible. I was lucky enough to attend the IASCA World Finals this year, as it was held in my city. Wanna talk about SQ-oriented cars that sound amazing? All of the heavy hitters were there.

It happened to me a few years ago.. I used to be all in favor of SPL, then the mythical "SQL", and now it's all about SQ. Rear fill is for the birds. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[James Bang 5,000+ posts]

i'd like to recreate a live performance w/o the 'echo'. i don't see why anyone would since there aren't any echoes when music is recorded. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eyebrow.gif.fe2c18d8720fe8c7eaed347b21ea05a5.gif

 

[reneeb7363 10+ year member]

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wallbash.gif.1310150c49dd52e0fbe1813a0681e5c3.gif because it feels //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wallbash.gif.1310150c49dd52e0fbe1813a0681e5c3.gif so //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wallbash.gif.1310150c49dd52e0fbe1813a0681e5c3.gif damn //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wallbash.gif.1310150c49dd52e0fbe1813a0681e5c3.gif GOOD!

microphones CAN record an echo! A Good recording has spatial queues and depth in the l/r stereo format so the recording does not sound FLAT/Dead- listen to the music from the 50's and early 60's-- yuck!

MOST studios are recording in L/R format because that is what the industry demands! Very few artists wish to exclude themselves from the 99% of people that arent obsessed with the quality, or quantity, of sound eminating from their vehicles.

and WHEN did I EVER state that you don't need a GREAT front soundstage FIRST!?! In this thread or the other. That should have been a known!

 

[Johnny Drama 5,000+ posts]

You lost me man //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif I'm not trying to recreate the studio . Just the music //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

He is saying that his front left and rear right see the same signal and the front right and rear left also see the same signal. Retarded if you ask me. He said that he still had stereo sound. He might, but it would be horrible.

Then he ranted on about center of car and blah, blah, but its all still like the time I judged that car with the mids and tweets mounted under the front seats firing forward...Doesnt work.

 

[goodstuff 10+ year member]

I forgot to mention I have 6 1/2's in the rear deck and tweets on the dash these are wired normally....and your right what I described wouldn't really work good without the tweets and mids in there as well...I don't have speakers under my front seats that's retarded.

 

[///M5 10+ year member]

I am sure your car sounds like complete and utter ***. More speakers playing the same frequencies does not equal better sound, in fact it is quite the opposite.

*refrains from stating that your avatar must be a self portrait

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Meh.

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

Some of these people need to sit in a vehile WITH A PROPER front stage.

Come sit in my truck...

I'll even put rear fill in... with a switch on the amplifier... and blind-fold the person.

I'll switch the amp on and off... you won't tell a difference.

nG