$150 to spend

[denim 5,000+ posts]

I don't think anyone is bashing the SQ people, heck I thought I was one. I think part of the distinction here is, to the human ear, there can be friendly and unfriendly distortion. Many people like a little bit of 4th order harmonic distortion. Yes, I agree, the lower the overall distortion the better, and I was not really defending my products, more or less just that I am flat out sick of the one sided belief of no exotic motor structure = no good for SQ. That is usually predicated over and over at DIYma. That is why I joined in on the conversation, meaning the sweeping unsupported generalization made about our drivers. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif As for the Q and Icon, two different drivers that are in sort of the same class, but do different things for different installs. And for the record, I don't make tons of money, if I did, I would not be working 2 full time jobs. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

depends on what your definition of sound quality is. to me sound quality is the best quality sound to accurately reproduce the sound of the music.in that situation, a lower distortion driver is by definition a SQ driver, and by definition has better SQ over a higher distortion driver.

There is only one true definition of SQ, accuracy of the reproduction as compared to the original recording. What I think you missed in my post was me discussing the distinction between accuracy (SQ), and personal preference. I wish everyone were aware of this and did not use the two terms synonymously, but they aren't and they do. Both the people who ask for a 'SQ sub that also bangs', and the people like dragonrage who say a sub cant sound good because it doesn't have a ruler-flat BL curve.

I dont mean to be calling out dragonrage here, he just happens to be the one saying it in this thread. He's welcome to his opinion, I dont mean to offend him, Im simply adding my 2 cents as well.

 

[Cruzer 10+ year member]

It's not that I think ssa and fi don't sound good(tho I wasn't impressed with the q, sounded just like any other sub I've heard) it's just I believe, and there are tests that prove there are better sq subs(most accurate subs)

u and denim are on the same kick and it's a perfectly fine thought and has plenty of truth to it. That people like a little distortion. Dragon might be saying unless it has a flat bl curve it won't sound good and can't be considered a sq sub. I just say there are more accurate and true to the music.

Also denim how are the q and icon different? Both claim to be sq 1000 watts and prefer vented boxes of same size.

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

Sure, there is always going to be more accurate, but in the end, there are SO many issues to deal with in car audio, in terms of the environment, I think we are starting to split hairs here. As for Q and Icon differences, there are many. Different motor all together (Q is a solid pole & single slug & steep backplate where as the out going Icon is vented pole & triple slug & and shallow back plate), different gaps etc. Q uses a aluminum coil, the Icon's primary is a copper. The Q has more thermal handling the the out going Icon, the Q also has more Xmax then the out going Icon. The Q has different suspension and different cone structure essentially, so different moving mass. Icon 12 Fs is 29.9, Q = 34.2. Icon has greater Vas. Q has a lower Qts. Icon has less moving mass etc.

 

Essentially what I am getting at is once you get past the surround and basket style, they vary across the board. Both drivers play very well in both sealed and ported. Some SQ focused people that focus hard on certain specs can make a case for either driver, as is with a lower Fs, higher Vas, higher Qts, and a tad more efficiency they can lean towards the Icon. Then on the other hand, with greater Xmax and higher sensitivity etc. etc. they can lean towards the Q.

 

It is all about preference and needs, and these two different drivers take a different approach to a similar goal. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Suicide Bobb 5,000+ posts]

He's an "on paper" sort of guy. Truth be told, I agree that flat BL's mean less distortion. Obviously. I own multiple xbl^2 drivers. But Im open minded enough to realize sound preference is subjective, not objective. Dragon is unwilling, or unable, to respect the distinction between SQ and personal preference. To him, if its not BL optimized, you best not call it a good sounding speaker.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Yeah...Some of my favorite amps are ones that actually add to the sound, or, rather, don't prohibit all the character from escaping. I feel like as time has gone on, amps have become more lifeless in their sound, as they lack that special something that quality old school amps had. These amps may not look as good on paper, but I wouldn't think twice about running them over new sq amps...

 

[Suicide Bobb 5,000+ posts]

Sure, there is always going to be more accurate, but in the end, there are SO many issues to deal with in car audio, in terms of the environment, I think we are starting to split hairs here. As for Q and Icon differences, there are many. Different motor all together (Q is a solid pole & single slug & steep backplate where as the out going Icon is vented pole & triple slug & and shallow back plate), different gaps etc. Q uses a aluminum coil, the Icon's primary is a copper. The Q has more thermal handling the the out going Icon, the Q also has more Xmax then the out going Icon. The Q has different suspension and different cone structure essentially, so different moving mass. Icon 12 Fs is 29.9, Q = 34.2. Icon has greater Vas. Q has a lower Qts. Icon has less moving mass etc. 

Essentially what I am getting at is once you get past the surround and basket style, they vary across the board. Both drivers play very well in both sealed and ported. Some SQ focused people that focus hard on certain specs can make a case for either driver, as is with a lower Fs, higher Vas, higher Qts, and a tad more efficiency they can lean towards the Icon. Then on the other hand, with greater Xmax and higher sensitivity etc. etc. they can lean towards the Q.

 

It is all about preference and needs, and these two different drivers take a different approach to a similar goal. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

So...Icon for teh lowz, Q for teh power?

 

[Cruzer 10+ year member]

Sure, there is always going to be more accurate, but in the end, there are SO many issues to deal with in car audio, in terms of the environment, I think we are starting to split hairs here. As for Q and Icon differences, there are many. Different motor all together (Q is a solid pole & single slug & steep backplate where as the out going Icon is vented pole & triple slug & and shallow back plate), different gaps etc. Q uses a aluminum coil, the Icon's primary is a copper. The Q has more thermal handling the the out going Icon, the Q also has more Xmax then the out going Icon. The Q has different suspension and different cone structure essentially, so different moving mass. Icon 12 Fs is 29.9, Q = 34.2. Icon has greater Vas. Q has a lower Qts. Icon has less moving mass etc. 

Essentially what I am getting at is once you get past the surround and basket style, they vary across the board. Both drivers play very well in both sealed and ported. Some SQ focused people that focus hard on certain specs can make a case for either driver, as is with a lower Fs, higher Vas, higher Qts, and a tad more efficiency they can lean towards the Icon. Then on the other hand, with greater Xmax and higher sensitivity etc. etc. they can lean towards the Q.

 

It is all about preference and needs, and these two different drivers take a different approach to a similar goal. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

i hear the same talk about, oh its a car, dont focus so much on the driver. Well i dont know about you, or anyone else, but if i have to choose between a higher distortion driver, in a door, where its going to be fighting all the aspects of being in a car(sealed and deadened door is still leaky, off axis, etc.) vs having a low distortion driver in the same situation, i would choose the lower distortion driver. would i notice a difference audible? no idea... but if its going to fight the car aspect and all of it involved, i want to start with a more true driver. i dont want to start with a mediocre accurate driver, then add on top all the things that will make it even more of a struggle to get the best sound.

anyways, these are the posts i like to see you post. in all seriousness looking at the Q having the option for high qts if going sealed, and from what i have been told u can get a shorting ring installed i would really be leaning to the Q(for sealed box, and shorting ring vs distortion) but interestingly enough, u tell about your driver. while i dont know everything about the designs of subs, i know copper>aluminum, and that definitely makes me more interested in the icon. then model it, looks better both sealed and ported.

i love the fact u can go read on sites that sell xbl2 subs, the technology behind it. u can go to AE's website and read about their motor and design, and why its better than the average. i just wish more brands did this. i love to be able to read and know about the product. in all seriousness, i think my whole SQ kick started by reading AE's stuff. he explains why u need this why u need that, why u cant just put an average sub in the correct box and have great sq. u need a driver built for it, then put it in the correct box. things of that nature.

im guessing FI is larger than ssa as far as sells? though u wouldnt know it with SSA coming out with a new sub? zcon i think? if ssa is smaller, would be great to support the smaller company as well //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

So...Icon for teh lowz, Q for teh power?

Both really get down with the get down. But the current Q can take more then the old Icon due to coil and cooling differences, once the new Icon is finished I can give a more up to date response. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

i hear the same talk about, oh its a car, dont focus so much on the driver. Well i dont know about you, or anyone else, but if i have to choose between a higher distortion driver, in a door, where its going to be fighting all the aspects of being in a car(sealed and deadened door is still leaky, off axis, etc.) vs having a low distortion driver in the same situation, i would choose the lower distortion driver. would i notice a difference audible? no idea... but if its going to fight the car aspect and all of it involved, i want to start with a more true driver. i dont want to start with a mediocre accurate driver, then add on top all the things that will make it even more of a struggle to get the best sound.
anyways, these are the posts i like to see you post. in all seriousness looking at the Q having the option for high qts if going sealed, and from what i have been told u can get a shorting ring installed i would really be leaning to the Q(for sealed box, and shorting ring vs distortion) but interestingly enough, u tell about your driver. while i dont know everything about the designs of subs, i know copper>aluminum, and that definitely makes me more interested in the icon. then model it, looks better both sealed and ported.

i love the fact u can go read on sites that sell xbl2 subs, the technology behind it. u can go to AE's website and read about their motor and design, and why its better than the average. i just wish more brands did this. i love to be able to read and know about the product. in all seriousness, i think my whole SQ kick started by reading AE's stuff. he explains why u need this why u need that, why u cant just put an average sub in the correct box and have great sq. u need a driver built for it, then put it in the correct box. things of that nature.

im guessing FI is larger than ssa as far as sells? though u wouldnt know it with SSA coming out with a new sub? zcon i think? if ssa is smaller, would be great to support the smaller company as well //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I think one part of the discussion that has not been addressed yet, yes I fully agree with you in terms of lower distortion driver choice for a mid or door speaker, but I think too many people forget a sub woofer plays VERY little of the actual audible frequency range, and in a correct install with most modern low-distortion drivers, distortion below 70hz or so is harder to discern then distortion in higher frequencies.

 

As for the better then average, it is kind of like the inexperienced members coming on here asking what amp is best. In reality, there is no best, there are good choices for a certain specified applications. The market is changing and there is nothing we can do about it, and the average customer is moving away from a XBL2 motored sub woofer (in the realm of a Brahama or Koda etc.). Mids and Highs, that is a different subject as I think XBL2 is great for those applications. What I am getting at is, power is getting cheaper FAST, (and I have a side theory about massive cuts in music programs across the country over a decade ago that has led to a steep drop off in real music appreciation and reproduction along with actually learning how to play an instrument) which is part of the "pimp my ride" generation where thermal characteristics of a driver is becoming more and more important and decent output with out much if any loss in clarity. That is evident here and on most audio boards where more and more topics are members asking about sub woofers that get loud but still sound good, hence that spread of the nonsense "SQL" term really started I assume. But now we are digressing too much.

 

In terms of the Q having that high Qts option for sealed, that is awesome, more people should look into it. We kind of focused on high power sealed box people with the Xcon as we addressed inductance with a shorting ring, and yes I know it does not map out perfect for a sealed box, but we are still too small to offer a dedicated sealed box driver. People ask about what is the Xcon compared to, and I don't like comparing to currently available sub woofers, so I say think of it as being in the same class as the old XXX.

 

As for Fi, holy crap, they move mountains of drivers. Fi probably moves more in a couple of days what SSA does in a month. I would venture to guess the spanking new to market BTL-N2 has outsold SSA all time since we released the first Icon. The Zcon is on the way (waiting for steel supplies at the moment), it is quite a different sub woofer from what we offer, and probably a little different focus then what you are looking for. We (SSA) are a very small brand, but we don't act or function like it if that makes sense.

 

[Cruzer 10+ year member]

I think one part of the discussion that has not been addressed yet, yes I fully agree with you in terms of lower distortion driver choice for a mid or door speaker, but I think too many people forget a sub woofer plays VERY little of the actual audible frequency range, and in a correct install with most modern low-distortion drivers, distortion below 70hz or so is harder to discern then distortion in higher frequencies. 

As for the better then average, it is kind of like the inexperienced members coming on here asking what amp is best. In reality, there is no best, there are good choices for a certain specified applications. The market is changing and there is nothing we can do about it, and the average customer is moving away from a XBL2 motored sub woofer (in the realm of a Brahama or Koda etc.). Mids and Highs, that is a different subject as I think XBL2 is great for those applications. What I am getting at is, power is getting cheaper FAST, (and I have a side theory about massive cuts in music programs across the country over a decade ago that has led to a steep drop off in real music appreciation and reproduction along with actually learning how to play an instrument) which is part of the "pimp my ride" generation where thermal characteristics of a driver is becoming more and more important and decent output with out much if any loss in clarity. That is evident here and on most audio boards where more and more topics are members asking about sub woofers that get loud but still sound good, hence that spread of the nonsense "SQL" term really started I assume. But now we are digressing too much.

 

In terms of the Q having that high Qts option for sealed, that is awesome, more people should look into it. We kind of focused on high power sealed box people with the Xcon as we addressed inductance with a shorting ring, and yes I know it does not map out perfect for a sealed box, but we are still too small to offer a dedicated sealed box driver. People ask about what is the Xcon compared to, and I don't like comparing to currently available sub woofers, so I say think of it as being in the same class as the old XXX.

 

As for Fi, holy crap, they move mountains of drivers. Fi probably moves more in a couple of days what SSA does in a month. I would venture to guess the spanking new to market BTL-N2 has outsold SSA all time since we released the first Icon. The Zcon is on the way (waiting for steel supplies at the moment), it is quite a different sub woofer from what we offer, and probably a little different focus then what you are looking for. We (SSA) are a very small brand, but we don't act or function like it if that makes sense.

your right that a sub plays very limited frequencies. however what ur missing is this. 90% of car audio is about the spl level. so sure in theory u can buy an icon and so long as u dont push it to its limits, it will have a respectably low distortion. however, u and i both know 90% of people will push that sub to its very hardest, which is why u underrate it. so it can at least stand up to the thermal limits people will throw at it. but what u seem to ignore, or perhaps u dont think it happens(granted most that push subs to limits dont care about sq or distortion) when u push the sub to its limits, the distortion is off the charts.

thats why things like xbl2, tc motor(forgot name of it), AE's motor were born. so u can push the crap out of the sub(within its thermal rating) and it will sound identical at volume 5 and volume 35. u will not have tons of distortion the harder u push it.

but hey i agree with you, power is getting cheaper, and so long as people are willing to make the electrical upgrades, people will always run tons of power, which is why fi and yourself sell so many subs.

no one is interested in a 1000 watt sub now days, they want to run 5k. you would be a fool to not join in on that and make money and sell 5k rms drivers

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

I fully understand the distortion aspect, when at the limits of drivers, it is going up. But the point of the matter is that those who are pushing the drivers that hard to the last few %'age of the drivers abilities are not the ones that give a crap about the finite differences of distortion between drivers and they are not the ones looking at the tech differences on paper either. And at that extreme level of output, distortion is no longer something to worry as the ears are overwhelmed anyway, and for anyone thinking that they can hear the finer details in the sub bass frequencies at 140db+, is just silly. In addition, overhung designs have vastly improved over the last few years through FEA optimization etc., that "tons" of audible distortion is no longer a major issue.

 

The other thing is about the sacrifices made when going with different designs, that is what it is all about in driver design, a give and take.

As for the 5k thing, we have a big power driver coming (not a 5k ratted one), but we are not going to cater to the kids that buy cheap crap amps that don't know how to set a gain, or build a proper enclosure, and clip the crap out of the signal then blame the company for the driver blowing, not touching that market.

 

[Team TH (Donny) 10+ year member]

As far as sound quality I'd look into Diamond Audio like their D3's or D6's. Get a dual 4 ohm and wire parallel. Pick the size you would prefer; a 10", 12", or 15". They are great for the money and worth checking into. Good luck finding what you need!

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

your right that a sub plays very limited frequencies. however what ur missing is this. 90% of car audio is about the spl level.

BL optimized drivers are often described as sounding 'quieter to the ear', which I suspect is one of the largest reasons they have not integrated into the market sooner.

 

[Bassin Buick]

I don't care what anybody says , the dcon has amazing SQ for a 115 dollar driver. I have 2 sitting right in front of me so this isn't nuthuggery , its first hand experience. I have ran them with as little as 50 watts each and as much as 400+ watts each and they deliver the SQ better than any other driver in that price range.

 

[Cruzer 10+ year member]

I don't care what anybody says , the dcon has amazing SQ for a 115 dollar driver. I have 2 sitting right in front of me so this isn't nuthuggery , its first hand experience. I have ran them with as little as 50 watts each and as much as 400+ watts each and they deliver the SQ better than any other driver in that price range.

oh really? why dont u pick this up and report back and be honest which sounds better. that is, if u can do that.

Dayton Audio RSS315HO-44 12" Reference HO DVC Subwoofer

one time i beat this older guy at a video game, he said i cheated. i asked how? he said ive played this game since it came out, u have only played a year, u cant be better unless you cheat. i asked so every man thats older than Michael Jordan and has played most of their life, is better at basketball than he is?

u cant say such a broad statement. "the dcon delivers the sq better than any other driver in that price range" unless u have heard every driver in that price range...