15" si mag vs. Idmax SQ BATTLE

[TC Sounds 10+ year member]

Speakers are not faster or slow. I think these words are mutations of tight vs boomy which are simply words used to describe frequency response which more accurately is simply damping vs ring.

non-linear frequency response due to a poorly matched system, or driver non-linearity of the BL, inductance or compliance causes just about all differences between speakers shy of car or room acoustics. Mass has nothing to do with how a driver sounds, mass only affects sensitivty.

 

[innsanes 10+ year member]

I love both imports and domestic cars, just like how i like my gurls //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

Ok. So can we agree that some subs have faster response than others, thereby making that a legitimate concern when searching for which sub to buy?

nope, transient response is of no audible concern in subwoofers. At 50hz, each cycle lasts 20 milliseconds...the rise and fall time of the driver is so minute when compared to the signal its reproducing that it becomes impossible to discern. At 3000hz , each cycle lasts .333 milliseconds. In addition to our increased hearing levels at this frequency, a rise and fall time that lasts a few milliseconds becomes very audible. Does that make sense?

Also, every panel (including the box the subwoofer is playing in) in your car resonates for a very long time. The car is a horrible environment, and any difference in transient response will be masked by the stored energy of the panels in your vehicle.

The argument heavy cone vs light cone doesn't hold any weight either. There are far too many additional variables to consider, such as the motor. A strong motor will accelerate a heavy cone to the same degree as a weak motor accelerates a light cone.

Imagine this analogy, an F18 vs a golf cart. The golf cart, weighs in at 500lbs (just a guess) and the F18 weighs in at 30,000lbs loaded (3,600lbs of fuel + 17,500lbs of bombs). The golf carts tiny electric motor accelerates it to an incredible 20mph...while the F18 reaches >1000mph. Which accelerates faster, the heavier or the lighter craft?

What you're describing is FREQUENCY RESPONSE. A tighter sound will have an exaggerated upper bass and a boomy sound will have an exaggerated low end. PLEASE DON'T REFER TO A BOOST IN THE UPPER BASS AS TIGHT OR A BOOST IN THE LOWER BASS AS BOOMY, YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK LIKE AN IGNORANT FOOL.

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

So you're saying that all subs are equal in their ability to keep up with quick bass lines caused by double kickdrums and the like?

nope, transient response is of no audible concern in subwoofers. At 50hz, each cycle lasts 20 milliseconds...the rise and fall time of the driver is so minute when compared to the signal its reproducing that it becomes impossible to discern. At 3000hz , each cycle lasts .333 milliseconds. In addition to our increased hearing levels at this frequency, a rise and fall time that lasts a few milliseconds becomes very audible. Does that make sense?
Also, every panel (including the box the subwoofer is playing in) in your car resonates for a very long time. The car is a horrible environment, and any difference in transient response will be masked by the stored energy of the panels in your vehicle.

The argument heavy cone vs light cone doesn't hold any weight either. There are far too many additional variables to consider, such as the motor. A strong motor will accelerate a heavy cone to the same degree as a weak motor accelerates a light cone.

Imagine this analogy, an F18 vs a golf cart. The golf cart, weighs in at 500lbs (just a guess) and the F18 weighs in at 30,000lbs loaded (3,600lbs of fuel + 17,500lbs of bombs). The golf carts tiny electric motor accelerates it to an incredible 20mph...while the F18 reaches >1000mph. Which accelerates faster, the heavier or the lighter craft?

What you're describing is FREQUENCY RESPONSE. A tighter sound will have an exaggerated upper bass and a boomy sound will have an exaggerated low end. PLEASE DON'T REFER TO A BOOST IN THE UPPER BASS AS TIGHT OR A BOOST IN THE LOWER BASS AS BOOMY, YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK LIKE AN IGNORANT FOOL.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

So you're saying that all subs are equal in their ability to keep up with quick bass lines caused by double kickdrums and the like?

Cmon man, how much factual information do you want? Several people (including me) in this thread have given very detailed explanations on why it is inaudible. The answer is YES, EVERY SUB HAS EQUAL SUBJECTIVE PERFORMANCE IN THE TIME DOMAIN. Is that big enough for you?

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

Cmon man, how much factual information do you want? Several people (including me) in this thread have given very detailed explanations on why it is inaudible. The answer is YES, EVERY SUB HAS EQUAL SUBJECTIVE PERFORMANCE IN THE TIME DOMAIN. Is that big enough for you?

If every sub is equally capable at accurately reproducing music, why are some subs prized for their SQ prowess? Why do I hear about bass lines sounding muddy if each sub is equal? Is this a problem with the install, recording, etc? I just find it hard to believe that all subs are created equal in the SQ realm.

And P.S., there is no need to be condescending. You're "factual information" conflicts with other "factual information" in this thread. I'm just trying to sort through it all and increase my knowledge a bit.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

If every sub is equally capable at accurately reproducing music, why are some subs prized for their SQ prowess? Why do I hear about bass lines sounding muddy if each sub is equal? Is this a problem with the install, recording, etc? I just find it hard to believe that all subs are created equal in the SQ realm.

...what? when did I ever say that? I believe I specifically said:

YES, EVERY SUB HAS EQUAL SUBJECTIVE PERFORMANCE IN THE TIME DOMAIN

Hmm...I believe I said "time domain". I was referring to transient response, the parameter that our whole conversation is centering around.

Sound Quality is derived from non-linear distortion (waves being reproduced by the woofer that are multiples of the original frequency and are unintended), which is specific to each driver, and frequency response which depend on the transfer function of the vehicle, the alignment (installation), and the driver.

And P.S., there is no need to be condescending. You're "factual information" conflicts with other "factual information" in this thread. I'm just trying to sort through it all and increase my knowledge a bit.

Please point out what factual information I've provided conflicts with other factual information. I've made two thorough posts, outlining specifically why its inaudible, I'm not being condescending or arrogant at this point.

 

[Hintzyboy 5,000+ posts]

...what? when did I ever say that? I believe I specifically said:

Hmm...I believe I said "time domain". I was referring to transient response, the parameter that our whole conversation is centering around.

Sound Quality is derived from non-linear distortion (waves being reproduced by the woofer that are multiples of the original frequency and are unintended), which is specific to each driver, and frequency response which depend on the transfer function of the vehicle, the alignment (installation), and the driver.

Please point out what factual information I've provided conflicts with other factual information. I've made two thorough posts, outlining specifically why its inaudible, I'm not being condescending or arrogant at this point.

OK, perhaps I just misunderstood some of the information here. Very early in the thread, when the "there is no such thing as a fast/slow sub" conversation was started, I asked what made one woofer more able to separate notes in a quick bass line such as in a song with double-kick drums. That was when all the transient response stuff began to emerge.

Now about the contradictions. I didn't memorize the Adire article, but in my understanding, it implied that a woofer with better transient response (identifiable by a lower inductance) would be better at keeping up with quick bass lines and would not sound sloppy, sluggish, etc. Then you come in saying that differences in transient response are inaudible for subwoofers. That's where I'm seeing the contradiction. It is completely possible that I misunderstood what one or both of you (Yourself and the Adire article) have said, but to my understanding there are contradictions in the information.

Regarding the last part, if you don't understand that posting the whole "Is that big enough for you" thing was the essence of condescension, you need to review your 8th grade vocabulary quizzes. (*Hint, that was condescending)

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

Now about the contradictions. I didn't memorize the Adire article, but in my understanding, it implied that a woofer with better transient response (identifiable by a lower inductance) would be better at keeping up with quick bass lines and would not sound sloppy, sluggish, etc. Then you come in saying that differences in transient response are inaudible for subwoofers. That's where I'm seeing the contradiction. It is completely possible that I misunderstood what one or both of you (Yourself and the Adire article) have said, but to my understanding there are contradictions in the information.

I'm not sure what you absorbed from the Adire article, but know this. The panels in your car store an exorbitant amount of energy (ie they resonate...LONG after the original note has past), enough to objectively mask any difference in rise/fall time. Also, at 50hz each cycle takes 20 milliseconds to complete which is much longer that the rise and fall time, so much in fact that its impossible for you to discern between them. Linear distortion (ie flaws in transient response) is greatly influenced by the cones ability to remain pistonic. In the bass region, almost all cone materials are pistonic...if there were an issue with fast/slow bass we'd probably have the "metal vs paper" argument not which material is lighter.

In the midrange, where linear distortion (ie transient response) is extremely important, the heavier metal cones most often store much less energy than the lighter paper cones (ie metal cones are much more pistonic).

Regarding the last part, if you don't understand that posting the whole "Is that big enough for you" thing was the essence of condescension, you need to review your 8th grade vocabulary quizzes. (*Hint, that was condescending)

I am perfectly aware of what the term means. You were having an extremely hard time grasping what I was trying to convey, and it was getting frustrating. I'm deeply sorry if I came off as condescending. This is a place of learning and the atmosphere should not be hostile.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[k12ug 10+ year member]

SI MAG!!!!!!!!!

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

SI MAG!!!!!!!!!//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif

Could you please post the reasons behind your decision? Most people on this forum recommend drivers...just because they heard it was a good driver. At least back your opinion up with subjective or objective factual information...not that he said/she said crap.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

I'm not sure what you absorbed from the Adire article, but know this. The panels in your car store an exorbitant amount of energy (ie they resonate...LONG after the original note has past), enough to objectively mask any difference in rise/fall time. Also, at 50hz each cycle takes 20 milliseconds to complete which is much longer that the rise and fall time, so much in fact that its impossible for you to discern between them. Linear distortion (ie flaws in transient response) is greatly influenced by the cones ability to remain pistonic. In the bass region, almost all cone materials are pistonic...if there were an issue with fast/slow bass we'd probably have the "metal vs paper" argument not which material is lighter.
In the midrange, where linear distortion (ie transient response) is extremely important, the heavier metal cones most often store much less energy than the lighter paper cones (ie metal cones are much more pistonic).

I am perfectly aware of what the term means. You were having an extremely hard time grasping what I was trying to convey, and it was getting frustrating. I'm deeply sorry if I came off as condescending. This is a place of learning and the atmosphere should not be hostile.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

the problem though is that the sound that resonates on the panels is a reflection of the signal that comes directly from the sub... so if you start with an inaccurate sound the resonance or continuing vibration will continue to sound inaccurate. if you start with an accurate signal, then it will continue to be accurate... so basically if the transient reponse sucks, yes it will sound bad and will make a difference....

so you say well hey it's moving 60 times a second, you won't be able to hear the difference right? wrong.

thats like saying 60 and 61 htz are the same, to your ear they might sound indistinguishable, but to some they don't. the fact is you do hear all of that, even though you don't have the ability to focus on everything you hear (IE: can you write down a symphony after hearing it?) there are a few who can, probably about .0001 percent of the population or less ...but you still HEAR it all... small variations in transient responce greatly affect the accuracy of the sub... thats why some subs are more suited for SPL while some subs are better suited for SQ with the same power handleing...

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

the problem though is that the sound that resonates on the panels is a reflection of the signal that comes directly from the sub... so if you start with an inaccurate sound the resonance or continuing vibration will continue to sound inaccurate. if you start with an accurate signal, then it will continue to be accurate... so basically if the transient reponse sucks, yes it will sound bad and will make a difference....

First and foremost, I'd like to establish that you're the forum member who's running two different subs in the same install, you are no source for scholarly information. Secondly, you have NO idea what you're talking about. Please stop spreading ignorant information. The resonance of panels is NOT a reflection, as they absorb some of the energy and release the energy over an extended period of time. That is why, they CONTINUE to vibrate LONG AFTER the original note has passed. A perfectly inert panel (such as a wall of concrete) would reflect...not a flimsy panel.

so you say well hey it's moving 60 times a second, you won't be able to hear the difference right? wrong. thats like saying 60 and 61 htz are the same, to your ear they might sound indistinguishable, but to some they don't. the fact is you do hear all of that, even though you don't have the ability to focus on everything you hear (IE: can you write down a symphony after hearing it?) there are a few who can, probably about .0001 percent of the population or less ...but you still HEAR it all... small variations in transient responce greatly affect the accuracy of the sub... thats why some subs are more suited for SPL while some subs are better suited for SQ with the same power handleing...

LOL? First off, I HIGHLY doubt you will be able to discern between a 60hz wave and a 61hz wave of the same amplitude. With that being said, you are completely wrong and you're making yourself look like an idiot. Transient response (as I have established with scientific information, not some "idea of mine") is inaudible at low frequencies. Your hearing sensitivity at these frequencies is abyssmal, lets have a look at a fletcher-munson equal loudness curve.

You are tens of dBs less sensitive at these frequencies as compared to your prime hearing. Thats why you can put up with such high levels of non-linear distortion without error.

Second, if you believe the transient response of woofers differs in a vehicle. I'd love to challenge you to setup a measurement setup in your car and measure the linear response of multiple woofers, and see if there is any palpable difference. The resonance of the panels will mask all of your results and your subjective perception of the sound quality.

small variations in transient responce greatly affect the accuracy of the sub... thats why some subs are more suited for SPL while some subs are better suited for SQ with the same power handleing...

Where are you getting your facts? Please link me. SPL translates to SOUND PRESSURE LEVEL and SQ translates to SOUND QUALITY. The goal of SPL is the maximum amount of displacement (efficiency and xmax), while the goal of SQ is flat frequency response and low non-linear distortion. SPL drivers wish to achieve the greatest linear travel at the specific frequency at the expense of fidelity, SQ drivers wish to reproduce realistic listening levels that are level matched with the rest of your system and produce little distortion in the process. Transient response of the driver does NOT affect perceived sound quality.

SPL drivers may handle more power, have less power compression at higher power levels or higher efficiency than SQ drivers...these are the reasons why they get louder not transient response.

Would you care to explain the relationship between transient response and SPL/SQ drivers?

 

[newusername 10+ year member]

What you're describing is FREQUENCY RESPONSE. A tighter sound will have an exaggerated upper bass and a boomy sound will have an exaggerated low end. PLEASE DON'T REFER TO A BOOST IN THE UPPER BASS AS TIGHT OR A BOOST IN THE LOWER BASS AS BOOMY, YOU MAKE YOURSELF LOOK LIKE AN IGNORANT FOOL.

Ignorance would be implying that frequency response is not directly related to transient response.

As for the concept of mass relating to transient response, I think there is a misconception that transient response directly relates to how accurate a driver will sound, when in fact, it doesn't. Mass certainly relates to the equation of perceived accuracy, more specifically, the driver's ability to damp the moving mass.