Current events discussion

[RobGMN Premium Member]

If it pays down the deficit/debt, I'll take it. If this helps bring back manufacturing to America, I'll take it.

In that case, this Tariff ***** us, and it should just be a 25% higher tax on the goods we buy.
The tariff pays the gov't, AND gives more profit to the seller.

I've never had a store raise their prices when sales tax increased, so this is a shitty plan, made by a fake guy.
Ron Vara, huh?

 

[stocker08 10+ year member]

I don't think reciprocal tariffs will work. The system is more complicated than that. I don't blame Trump for trying to get the better end of the deal. China sure AF got the better end of the deal for the last 30 years. We've basically built up there economy and military to get cheap coffee makers - stupid, stupid and stupid.

Completely depends on how you look at it. China as a whole benefited from the extra income coming from the U.S. while the people living here experience more buying power of the dollar due to lower costs. I don't understand why people look at our trade with China in such a black and white way. There's such thing as mutually beneficial trade.

I agree with lifting the cap. That said, when "they" were raiding the SS trust fund, we were told they would pay it back with interest. Given the state of the budget, it's more likely they'll resort to the money press.

Most likely. It's going to have to be addressed eventually. Sooner rather than later would be better.

I don't think the "embargo" will last. Ultimately the message is bring manufacturing back to the US. That said, I do think Trump is missing a golden opportunity to cooperate with Mexico (and Canda?) as trade/manufacturing partners with low/favorable trade arrangements. It might even be as simple as optics - ie if Mexico's tariff is 50% and China's is 125%, then Mexico already has a favorable trade arrangement.

Additionally, I'll maintain that the level of (legal & illegal) immigration we've allowed from Mexico is a huge disservice to Mexico. As far as I can tell the Mexican/Hispanic community tends to be hard working and entrepreneurial, so in essence we've been "stealing" Mexico's best workers and entrepreneurs, etc and left Mexico with an artificially depressed economy that is beholden to cartels.

It can't last. In the end both the United States and China are dependent upon one another. As I said above, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, there's no reason that the U.S. cannot bolster manufacturing here in the coming years/decades. Targeted tariffs that help to protect our most important manufacturing industries is 100% a good foreign policy. But blanket tariffs are not. Too many "inferior" goods that don't make sense for us to manufacture due to the added costs related to labor. Not to mention that we don't even have the population to support manufacturing everything that the country needs. International trade will never go away. And the fact is that the U.S. is one of the wealthiest and most powerful countries in the world. We're going to buy and consume more from other countries than they'll buy from us in general.

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

It's an IMPORT tariff. That means a tariff paid by the IMPORTER.
An EXPORT tariff is paid by the EXPORTER.

To make the above words official, this is taken from the government website. I made an important word bold.

• A tariff or duty (the words are used interchangeably) is a tax levied by governments on the value including freight and insurance of imported products. Different tariffs applied on different products by different countries.
• https://www.trade.gov/import-tariffs-fees-overview-and-resources

China is an EXPORTER when they send goods here. If there is an EXPORT tariff, China would charge the EXPORTER in China.
Trump does not get to set EXPORT tariffs for Chinese EXPORTERS. Trump has no authority in China to do that.

So, Trump puts an IMPORT tariff on goods that get paid by the IMPORTER. An IMPORTER is located in the country where the goods land, to be bought by the consumer.
When the goods land here the IMPORTER has to pay the IMPORT tariff on those goods to the US government. Not coincidentally, the words IMPORTER and IMPORT tariff really seem to go together. The process is much like when you buy a Rolex in Switzerland, then have to pay a duty to US ccustoms when you get here.
With that purchase, you became an IMPORTER, and have to pay the fees. Rolex of Switzerland doesn't pay them for you.

Before, I only had to pay tariffs for goods I imported that exceeded the de minimis of $800. I paid this to the US Government. Now, I will have to pay a tariff for ALL goods I bring in. When the goods get here, the shipping agent will not be calling the seller and asking for the money, they will be demanding it of me before they hand over the product.

So, that carbon fiber bike frame that I got for $500 and was simply delivered to my door before, will now be delivered to my door but will not be left there until I pay the IMPORT tariff of $125. Those funds which go directly from my pocket to the US government.

You are making it WAY more complicated than it actually is. You are over-explaining how you think tariffs work and you are doubling down on it.

Trump is literally telling China if they want to sell their $100 imitation iPhone headphones here it will cost them an additional 125%. Those headphones now cost $225 before they even reach our shores. You listening? The IMPORTER knows this. The importer does not have to import this product if they don't want to pay the extra cost just to get it into the country to where the retail store is now going to have to sell it for $350. Consumers are not going to pay $350 for imitation Chinese iPhone headphones that they used to get on Temu for $10.

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

You are making it WAY more complicated than it actually is. You are over-explaining how you think tariffs work and you are doubling down on it.

You can't POSSIBLY be serious at this point.
I literally post the explanation right from the government website, and you say it it's how I "think" tariffs work?

This is rapidly approaching your level of argument about nerves in bones.

The way it works is not how I "think" is works; the way it works is the way our government SAYS it works, right in the goddamn law. The key word that you seem really confused by is IMPORT.

Trump is literally telling China if they want to sell their $100 imitation iPhone headphones here it will cost them an additional 125%. Those headphones now cost $225 before they even reach our shores. You listening? The IMPORTER knows this. The importer does not have to import this product if they don't want to pay the extra cost just to get it into the country to where the retail store is now going to have to sell it for $350. Consumers are not going to pay $350 for imitation Chinese iPhone headphones that they used to get on Temu for $10.

Seriously, that is NOT how an IMPORT tariff works. Trump has NO authority to charge an export tariff to the company sending a fake OR a legit phone, or any other product over here.
Trump is not the leader of China. The US government cannot tell China what EXPORT tariffs to charge the Chinese EXPORTERS, any more than it has the authority to tell China how much sales tax they collect on goods sold in the Guangzhou marketplace.

Trump and the Us Government can only impose an IMPORT tax on goods, that gets assigned when the goods ARRIVE ON OUR SHORES. At that time, and that time only, they can say "Mr IMPORTER Rob, you must pay XX% tariff based on the cost of those goods, before you may take them home from this port"

They do NOT call Mr Yeng at AliBaba, and say "The goods have arrived, you must now pay XX% tariff before Rob can pick them up".
Why? Because Rob has already paid Mr Yeng for the product. That is why Mr Yeng was willing to ship the product. Mr Yeng does not give two ***** if Rob can pick up the goods or not, because he already got paid, shipped the goods out, and closed up shop, which he will later reopen under another name.

So, Mr Yeng is GONE, the goods are at the port, and I want them.
Tell me: WHO is going to pay that IMPORT tariff? Is it Mr Yeng the EXPORTER, or Mr Rob, the IMPORTER?

I've tried to provide as clear and simple an explanation of this process as possible, using a real-life example.
And I'll ask, have you ever imported a product and paid a duty or tariff?

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

You can't POSSIBLY be serious at this point.
I literally post the explanation right from the government website, and you say it it's how I "think" tariffs work?

This is rapidly approaching your level of argument about nerves in bones.

The way it works is not how I "think" is works; the way it works is the way our government SAYS it works, right in the goddamn law. The key word that you seem really confused by is IMPORT.


Seriously, that is NOT how an IMPORET tariff works. Trump has NO authority to charge an export tariff to the company sending a fake OR a legit phone, or any other product over here.
Trump is not the leader of China. The US government cannot tell China what EXPORT tariffs to charge the Chinese EXPORTERS, any more than it has the authority to tell China how much sales tax they collect on goods sold in the Guangzhou marketplace.

Trump and the Us Government can only impose an IMPORT tax on goods, that gets assigned when the goods ARRIVE ON OUR SHORES. At that time, and that time only, they can say "Mr IMPORTER Rob, you must pay XX% tariff based on the cost of those goods, before you may take them home from this port"

They do NOT call Mr Yeng at AliBaba, and say "The goods have arrived, you must now pay XX% tariff before Rob can pick them up".
Why? Because Rob has already paid Mr Yeng for the product. That is why Mr Yeng was willing to ship the product. Mr Yeng does not give two ***** if Rob can pick up the goods or not, because he already got paid, shipped the goods out, and closed up shop, which he will later reopen under another name.

So, Mr Yeng is GONE, the goods are at the port, and I want them.
Tell me: WHO is going to pay that IMPORT tariff? Is it Mr Yeng the EXPORTER, or Mr Rob, the IMPORTER?

I've tried to provide as clear and simple an explanation of this process as possible, using a real-life example.
And I'll ask, have you ever imported a product and paid a duty or tariff?

Believe whatever your heart tells you Rob.

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

I tell you what Rob. Since you think you know. Explain why Trump is imposing tariffs on CHINA then. He is not saying he is imposing tariffs on the American Importer. Explain how a tariff affects CHINA. The way you are trying to pass the tariff off is that it only affects the AMERICAN IMPORTER. If that were the case, why impose a tariff.

Clean it up Rob and EXPLAIN in layman's terms how a tariff is supposed to affect CHINA.

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

I tell you what Rob. Since you think you know. Explain why Trump is imposing tariffs on CHINA then. He is not saying he is imposing tariffs on the American Importer. Explain how a tariff affects CHINA. The way you are trying to pass the tariff off is that it only affects the AMERICAN IMPORTER. If that were the case, why impose a tariff.

Clean it up Rob and EXPLAIN in layman's terms how a tariff is supposed to affect CHINA.

It's an IMPORT tariff. A tariff paid on IMPORTED goods by an IMPORTER.
Trump is not imposing an import tariff on China, he does not have that authority. He is not their leader. He does not run their government.
He can only impose an IMPORT tariff on Chinese goods that have arrived on our shores. He can't even do it when they are on the ship on their way here.

He CLAIMS China will pay the IMPORT tariff for goods shipped here. China will not do so any more than WE will pay China's import tariffs for goods we ship there. If I sold 500 pair of vintage denim jeans to a reseller in China for $10K right now, I would ship the jeans and be done with it. Whoever buys them pays the CHINESE import tariff when they pick them up at the port.

In order to help you learn, I'll ask you some questions.

1. When I buy 1000 MP3 players for $1 each from Mr Yeng in China and he ships them here after I pay for them, is he an EXPORTER, or an IMPORTER?
2. When I buy those players and have them shipped here after they are paid for, am I an EXPORTER, or an IMPORTER?
3. When those 1,000 MP3 players arrive in the port and I have to go pick them up. Will the port authority think I am an EXPORTER, or an IMPORTER?
4. IF they think I am an IMPORTER because I am IMPORTING those goods, will they ask me to pay the 25% IMPORT tariff, or will they call Mr Yeng and ask HIM to pay the 25% IMPORT tariff?
5. If your answer is that they will call Mr Yeng, can you tell us what happens when Mr Yeng does not answer his phone? Can you tell us what happens if Mr Yeng answers and politely tells them to stick it up their bum?
6. If you think they will charge ME the 25% IMPORT tariff for IMPORTING those MP3 players, can you explain why they would not charge Mr Yeng when he EXPORTED them?

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

It's an IMPORT tariff. A tariff paid on IMPORTED goods by an IMPORTER.
Trump is not imposing an import tariff on China, he does not have that authority. He is not their leader. He does not run their government.
He can only impose an IMPORT tariff on Chinese goods that have arrived on our shores. He can't even do it when they are on the ship on their way here.

He CLAIMS China will pay the IMPORT tariff for goods shipped here. China will not do so any more than WE will pay China's import tariffs for goods we ship there. If I sold 500 pair of vintage denim jeans to a reseller in China for $10K right now, I would ship the jeans and be done with it. Whoever buys them pays the CHINESE import tariff when they pick them up at the port.

So who is Trump imposing these tariffs on? I ask because other countries want to negotiate with Trump... not importers, other countries. ALL MEDIA is also saying that Trump has imposed tariffs on CHINA. Are you sure your hatred and far left bias as well as narrative isn't clouding your brain?

I also find it odd that you think phones and computers don't exist and that America cannot contact China to let them know anything they send our way will be 125% more expensive to enter our country. Just.... odd.

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

CNN - "President Donald Trump announced a complete three-month pause on all the “reciprocal” tariffs that went into effect at midnight, with the exception of China, a stunning reversal from a president who had insisted historically high tariffs were here to stay.


But enormous tariffs will remain on China, the world’s second-largest economy. In fact, Trump said they will be increased to 125% from 104% after China announced additional retaliatory tariffs against the United States earlier Wednesday. All other countries that were subjected to reciprocal tariff rates Wednesday will see rates go back down to the universal 10% rate, he said."

I don't see any mention of IMPORTERS.

 

[AnthonyO 10+ year member]

The reason you don’t see American goods selling well in other countries, is because other countries have high tariffs on US goods. That way their people buy their goods. Canada has done this for years. That’s why Canadians come into the United States to buy US goods. It’s cheaper here than what they can buy it there.

And actually if you buy gas, you are/were helping Canada. Because we export oil from Canada. Now I know a lot of people in the oil industry. And they hate Canadian oil. Because it’s crude oil and takes a lot of refining to use it.

We allowed China to send billions of their cheap good here without tariff, while they tariffed our goods. They want to sell here without a tariff, but don’t want American goods to sell there.

A lot of you are too young to remember the late 80’s early 90’s where we had American made amps. Yes, they were expensive but, the customer service was top notch. And then we started letting China sell their stuff and American companies couldn’t compete with cheap Chinese amps. So China basically cost American businesses to shut down and American workers to lose their jobs.

 

[AnthonyO 10+ year member]

If the US would have had tariffs on Chinese amps and made them comparably priced to American made. There would have been no comparison. Americans would have bought American made instead of cheap Chinese.

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

So who is Trump imposing these tariffs on? I ask because other countries want to negotiate with Trump... not importers, other countries. ALL MEDIA is also saying that Trump has imposed tariffs on CHINA. Are you sure your hatred and far left bias as well as narrative isn't clouding your brain?

I also find it odd that you think phones and computers don't exist and that America cannot contact China to let them know anything they send our way will be 125% more expensive to enter our country. Just.... odd.

OK. You are for sure simply being a contrarian. Or you have the intellect of a child.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and going with contrarian, but you're making a strong case for the latter.

So tell me: Exactly HOW does Trump make Mr. Yeng pay a 25% tariff on the $1,000 of product he has just shipped out to me after running my credit card?
The product that is now in a shipping container with product from all of the other Chinese exporters. The product that Mr Yeng has charged me and collected $1,000 from Visa for.
And Mr Yeng has emptied out his bank accounts, closed his business, and moved to Australia to live off the grid.
HOW does Trump make Mr. Yeng pay a 25% tariff on the $1,000 of product he has just shipped out to me after running my credit card?

It's a very simple question and will fully prove or disprove your theory that the EXPORTER in China will pay the IMPORT tariff on something I buy.
I asked twice to show I am looking for an actual answer, and not a tangential discussion, complaint, claim that I have TDS, claim that "Trump said so", claim that I don't understand words like "import" or "export", or any such nonsense.

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

OK. You are for sure simply being a contrarian. Or you have the intellect of a child.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and going with contrarian, but you're making a strong case for the latter.

So tell me: Exactly HOW does Trump make Mr. Yeng pay a 25% tariff on the $1,000 of product he has just shipped out to me after running my credit card?
The product that is now in a shipping container with product from all of the other Chinese exporters. The product that Mr Yeng has charged me and collected $1,000 from Visa for.
And Mr Yeng has emptied out his bank accounts, closed his business, and moved to Australia to live off the grid.
HOW does Trump make Mr. Yeng pay a 25% tariff on the $1,000 of product he has just shipped out to me after running my credit card?

It's a very simple question and will fully prove or disprove your theory that the EXPORTER in China will pay the IMPORT tariff on something I buy.
I asked twice to show I am looking for an actual answer, and not a tangential discussion, complaint, claim that I have TDS, claim that "Trump said so", claim that I don't understand words like "import" or "export", or any such nonsense.

What are you getting excited for? I did not come close to saying anything about an exporter in China. I think you may just be wanting to argue so you are assuming I am saying something untrue. I am not making anything up here. China can send all they like but that doesn't mean it will enter this country. I tried to simplify the example... the explanation for you. You apparently don't understand it or just want to argue.

Tariffs are a profit.
China profits from tariffs on the US.
We profit from tariffs on China.
China isn't playing FAIR.
Trump raised tariffs on China to 125%.
This will increase our profit... IF the importer pays the tariff. Which they don't have to. They can say no, the tariff is too high, we refuse your product. Now China loses money from the sale, loses money from transporting the product. This works on higher priced products. On lower priced products the importer may/will pay the tariff and the country profits. If the cost is too much for the consumer then the demand will go down, the importer will refuse that product as well and China loses another sale, loses money from transporting the product.

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

In that case, this Tariff ***** us, and it should just be a 25% higher tax on the goods we buy.
The tariff pays the gov't, AND gives more profit to the seller.

I've never had a store raise their prices when sales tax increased, so this is a shitty plan, made by a fake guy.
Ron Vara, huh?

No, the tariff doesn't give more profit to the seller, that's just something you're saying because it fits a narrative. If the tariffs were indeed so profitable for sellers as you claim, why did the markets rather than rally when the tariffs hit?

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

Completely depends on how you look at it. China as a whole benefited from the extra income coming from the U.S. while the people living here experience more buying power of the dollar due to lower costs. I don't understand why people look at our trade with China in such a black and white way. There's such thing as mutually beneficial trade.

I mentioned we got cheaper goods, so yes we got a benefit out of it or the trade wouldn't have happened in the first place. I don't think any American can honestly look at the net results of 30 years of "free trade" with China and think we got the better of the deal or anything near a fair deal out it. I'm getting cheap goods that fall apart more frequently, so often times I'm not even saving money.

Most likely. It's going to have to be addressed eventually. Sooner rather than later would be better.

Soon would be nice, but "they" will wait until the last minute and then call it crisis and blame it on "the other guys." Meanwhile, other nations have sovereign wealth funds.

It can't last. In the end both the United States and China are dependent upon one another. As I said above, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, there's no reason that the U.S. cannot bolster manufacturing here in the coming years/decades. Targeted tariffs that help to protect our most important manufacturing industries is 100% a good foreign policy. But blanket tariffs are not. Too many "inferior" goods that don't make sense for us to manufacture due to the added costs related to labor. Not to mention that we don't even have the population to support manufacturing everything that the country needs. International trade will never go away. And the fact is that the U.S. is one of the wealthiest and most powerful countries in the world. We're going to buy and consume more from other countries than they'll buy from us in general.

I agree that the tariff policy needs to much more nuanced than blanket tariffs. I don't think we can or should manufacture everything here, but I'd like to see more manufacturing in Mexico and Latin America. America has helped rebuild 3 major economies since WW2 - Germany, Japan & China. I'd say rebuilding Germany and Japan have been net benefits to the US. China has been a net negative IMHO.