Widebands or tweets for 2way active?

[maxmil982]

Im working on a 2way active SQL setup.

So far I have a single Sundown SA-12 using a clean 1200rms of an old school Orion HCCA competition amp.

A pair of Stevens MB8s (see pic) in the bottom of the front doors(I will be soundteating the doors to the max) I believe the MB8s will be considered off-axis

And a pair of SB29RDNC-C000-4 planned to go in the a-pillars on axis.

Also a Dayton 408 and a ppi900.4 to power the front stage.

I've talked to Eric Stevens and he recommends something like the SB29 which has high sensitivity to keep up with the MB8s, which have a sensitivy of 101 @2.83v, and the SA12. He did mention that my setup with high output, the tweets should be crossed between 2000-4500, high enough to not blow the tweeters.

I've done a ton a research and have been told the MB8s will begin beaming somewhere around 1500‐2000Hz. And it will be better for them to be crossed as low as possible. My goal is to keep all speakers somewhat near their sweet spot, and have high output clearly. This is going to be my first build and I dont have the ear just yet to pursue pristine SQ, as long as it gets loud and clear without sounding bad and distorted then everything will be good.

My question is would it be better to use a wideband, on axis, in place of the SB29s? It seems the proper wideband will help the MB8s be crossed lower and also be able to play high enough to cover all the top end frequencies. Does this sound like a better plan? For simplicity I'd really like to keep the SB29s and eliminate the need to fabricate a larger spot for a wideband and the need for a 3rd amp, but if the SB29s will flat-out not be a good match I dont mind putting in the extra work. Please advise.

I have been looking at the AF GS25 and the Morel CCWR254 2.5".
I'll be looking for a good used set of widebands for around $100-150 (~$250-300 retail)
Are there any other widebands that will be a good match?

Click to read more...

 

[SkizeR 10+ year member]

I personally would use a midbass and a wideband vs a mid and a tweeter if sound quality was my goal. But, high output/high efficiency and widebands are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Widebands by nature are relatively low sensitivity drivers. Doing an 8" pro audio style midbass and a wideband just makes no sense. But doing an 8" and a tweeter makes even less sense. I think you need to go back to the drawing board. Either do horns or a *dedicated* midrange (not a wideband that is bandpassed, but an actual midrange driver. Yes, there is a difference between that and a wideband) and tweeters. Also, beaming is a bit misunderstood by most on the internet. Yes, it has pretty much purely to do with the diameter of the driver, but its not that an 8 beams at 1700hz like its a brick wall filter. The way it works is that off axis response will start rolling off at about a quarter wavelength of the diameter of the diaphragm. for an 8" driver, that starts at about 425hz. by 2500 or higher, where you will need to cross those tweeters, those 8's are going to have very poor off axis response.

 

[maxmil982]

I personally would use a midbass and a wideband vs a mid and a tweeter if sound quality was my goal. But, high output/high efficiency and widebands are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Widebands by nature are relatively low sensitivity drivers. Doing an 8" pro audio style midbass and a wideband just makes no sense. But doing an 8" and a tweeter makes even less sense. I think you need to go back to the drawing board. Either do horns or a *dedicated* midrange (not a wideband that is bandpassed, but an actual midrange driver. Yes, there is a difference between that and a wideband) and tweeters. Also, beaming is a bit misunderstood by most on the internet. Yes, it has pretty much purely to do with the diameter of the driver, but its not that an 8 beams at 1700hz like its a brick wall filter. The way it works is that off axis response will start rolling off at about a quarter wavelength of the diameter of the diaphragm. for an 8" driver, that starts at about 425hz. by 2500 or higher, where you will need to cross those tweeters, those 8's are going to have very poor off axis response.

Ok got it thanks! So basically you're saying go 3way?

Keep the MB8s, keep the SB29s and add a midrange with high sensitivity? What would you suggest for a midrange, and where would be a good place to put it?

The car is an Altima and Id have to fabricate something by opening a hole in the door skin or have something small enough to fit somewhat neatly onto the a-pillar WITH the tweets above them.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

widebands arent loud, if its like that just go to a 3 way front stage if you want output. Those SB acoustics arent loud though. I had the same ones on a ppi 900.4 as well. couldnt keep up and had weak 10khz and up performance. massive CT2s outclass those sb acoustics in every way possible in SQ and SPL and they are actually cheaper which is absolutely nuts.

 

[SkizeR 10+ year member]

widebands arent loud, if its like that just go to a 3 way front stage if you want output. Those SB acoustics arent loud though. I had the same ones on a ppi 900.4 as well. couldnt keep up and had weak 10khz and up performance.

The SB's are very efficient though.. 95db or so across their intended passband. Thats insane for a tweeter of that size and with a resonant frequency that low. Frankly, its a monster for what it is especially at that price. If you experienced that they weren't loud, then i can only come to a few conclusions.

1) your expectations are way off, but i doubt that considering your below comment
2) your install/tuning needs improvement
3) your insane or have no idea what you are talking about


Im thinking number 2 to be honest. how are you measuring said 10khz roll off? mic with an rta? or are you just guestimating? tweeters can suffer from lack of output if installed in certain locations while the rest of the drivers are boundary loaded. This is why a lot of car audio companies make their tweeters much more sensitive vs the rest of the drivers in that line. Just in case something like this happens in an install. Im curious what they "couldn't keep up" with. Do you have a build log? that might be easier to see what is going on.

massive CT2s outclass those sb acoustics in every way possible in SQ and SPL and they are actually cheaper which is absolutely nuts.

im sorry but, zero shot. SB acoustics is regarded as one of the best speaker manufacturers in the world, and the off the shelf Chinese **** that massive puts out couldn't hold a candle to it. That said, SB29 also has a published 2.86v sensitivity of just under 95db. The CT2 has a published (but no frequency response measurement in sight, go figure) sensitivity of 92db.... Im starting to think that it might be a combination of 2 and 3.. sorry

 

[maxmil982]

widebands arent loud, if its like that just go to a 3 way front stage if you want output. Those SB acoustics arent loud though. I had the same ones on a ppi 900.4 as well. couldnt keep up and had weak 10khz and up performance. massive CT2s outclass those sb acoustics in every way possible in SQ and SPL and they are actually cheaper which is absolutely nuts.

Wow! Im shocked to hear that. I was convinced those SBs were a sure thing with 91db 1w/1m (I know specs aren't everything) literally everyone I've talked to said those are loud and a great fit. Seasoned vets vouched for them big time. Couple people said they were going to use them with the same Stevens MB8s.

Having said that I've seen you around and you've helped me out in the past and I respect your opinion especially since you've used them.

The CT2s are rated 92db but it doesn't say if that's 2.83v or 1w, but I'll look into them... I did run across some Morel CAT378 which, on paper, look to possibly be a better fit than the CT2 or SB. It has 93db and great reviews everywhere. Do you know anything about the Morels?

Home

Morel CAT 378 1-1/8" Soft Dome Horn TweeterMorel's CAT378 features a hand treated 1-1/8" soft dome, horn loaded for higher efficiency and high dynamic range without power compression. The magnet assembly is vented into a damped rear chamber to lower resonance and to eliminate "honking" at lower...

www.parts-express.com

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

The SB's are very efficient though.. 95db or so across their intended passband. Thats insane for a tweeter of that size and with a resonant frequency that low. Frankly, its a monster for what it is especially at that price. If you experienced that they weren't loud, then i can only come to a few conclusions.

1) your expectations are way off, but i doubt that considering your below comment
2) your install/tuning needs improvement
3) your insane or have no idea what you are talking about


Im thinking number 2 to be honest. how are you measuring said 10khz roll off? mic with an rta? or are you just guestimating? tweeters can suffer from lack of output if installed in certain locations while the rest of the drivers are boundary loaded. This is why a lot of car audio companies make their tweeters much more sensitive vs the rest of the drivers in that line. Just in case something like this happens in an install. Im curious what they "couldn't keep up" with. Do you have a build log? that might be easier to see what is going on.




im sorry but, zero shot. SB acoustics is regarded as one of the best speaker manufacturers in the world, and the off the shelf Chinese **** that massive puts out couldn't hold a candle to it. That said, SB29 also has a published 2.86v sensitivity of just under 95db. The CT2 has a published (but no frequency response measurement in sight, go figure) sensitivity of 92db.... Im starting to think that it might be a combination of 2 and 3.. sorry

its a straight up drop in replacement in the install which is fully and properly tuned ready for local MECA meets, SB got its butt whooped in all aspects even with 10+ hours of tuning and playing with different positioning, checking phase, RTA sweeps the works. I even have it outside testing them side by side. Theres literally no comparison. Charts and measurements is one thing which is in a controlled environment, how the driver works IRL is totally different story, you of all people should know this.

BTW The measured response was with an RTA and REW, to other people its fine but I personally rather like the airy and details that beryllium drivers can produce same with planar magnetic headphones which is not a natural flat roll off so thats pure subjective taste Those graphs do not look pretty to the eye but they sound sweet and detailed when music is played I personally do not like the harmon house curve at all.

As for efficiency, the massive CT2s can keep up with 4 18s on 30k. The SB acoustics no matter the crossover point, could not even come close to keeping up even with the sub level knocked down several notches both were on 150 rms per channel worth of power So literally we can argue paper stats all day or we can actually test the drivers and see for ourselves. You pick.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Wow! Im shocked to hear that. I was convinced those SBs were a sure thing with 91db 1w/1m (I know specs aren't everything) literally everyone I've talked to said those are loud and a great fit. Seasoned vets vouched for them big time. Couple people said they were going to use them with the same Stevens MB8s.

Having said that I've seen you around and you've helped me out in the past and I respect your opinion especially since you've used them.

The CT2s are rated 92db but it doesn't say if that's 2.83v or 1w, but I'll look into them... I did run across some Morel CAT378 which, on paper, look to possibly be a better fit than the CT2 or SB. It has 93db and great reviews everywhere. Do you know anything about the Morels?

Home

Morel CAT 378 1-1/8" Soft Dome Horn TweeterMorel's CAT378 features a hand treated 1-1/8" soft dome, horn loaded for higher efficiency and high dynamic range without power compression. The magnet assembly is vented into a damped rear chamber to lower resonance and to eliminate "honking" at lower...

www.parts-express.com

i've been curious about those but never tried. I'm on car audio buying hiatus at the moment. I remember having a conversation with papermaker about them and he was okay with his, not his cup of tea though. He liked ribbon tweeters more sound signature wise. He claimed he output on the morels could keep up pretty well with his setup which supposedly does a 155 so it sounds promising in the output department. It better seeing that its a horn design.

 

[hispls 5,000+ posts]

He claimed he output on the morels could keep up pretty well with his setup which supposedly does a 155

Did that ever actually happen? Did we ever get proof? I miss that guy for a class clown around here.

Anyway, to OP, have you considered a large planar type driver to pair with midrange that needs to be crossed over low? They're typically very sensitive to being off axis but they can sound amazing if you can work out a good mounting location.

 

[Jeffdachef 5,000+ posts]

Did that ever actually happen? Did we ever get proof? I miss that guy for a class clown around here.

Anyway, to OP, have you considered a large planar type driver to pair with midrange that needs to be crossed over low? They're typically very sensitive to being off axis but they can sound amazing if you can work out a good mounting location.

Never thats why i said he claimed lmao

 

[maxmil982]

Did that ever actually happen? Did we ever get proof? I miss that guy for a class clown around here.

Anyway, to OP, have you considered a large planar type driver to pair with midrange that needs to be crossed over low? They're typically very sensitive to being off axis but they can sound amazing if you can work out a good mounting location.

I haven't. I'm very new to car audio. I've logged literally hundreds of hours of research but no 1st hand experience yet. Im really close to just installing things and trying things out. Thing is I'd like to get pretty close to an ideal setup on the 1st shot, and not have to fabricate things only to find out it doesn't sound good and have to re-fabricate.

Anyway I'm not familiar with planar type drivers, can you point me in the right direction of which planar type drivers to consider for high sensitivity and playing low?

 

[SkizeR 10+ year member]

Do NOT do a planar style driver for this application.

 

[maxmil982]

Do NOT do a planar style driver for this application.

Thanks for the feedback.
Any thoughts on these 2...

Home

Peerless by Tymphany H26TG45-06 1" Silk Dome Tweeter with Waveguide 6 OhmThe Tymphany H26TG45-06 features a treated silk dome and horn loaded faceplate, making it an efficient and natural sounding tweeter suitable for high efficiency speaker designs. Thanks to a damped rear chamber lowering the...

www.parts-express.com

Home

Morel CAT 378 1-1/8" Soft Dome Horn TweeterMorel's CAT378 features a hand treated 1-1/8" soft dome, horn loaded for higher efficiency and high dynamic range without power compression. The magnet assembly is vented into a damped rear chamber to lower resonance and to eliminate "honking" at lower...

www.parts-express.com

 

[SkizeR 10+ year member]

Thanks for the feedback.
Any thoughts on these 2...

Home

Peerless by Tymphany H26TG45-06 1" Silk Dome Tweeter with Waveguide 6 OhmThe Tymphany H26TG45-06 features a treated silk dome and horn loaded faceplate, making it an efficient and natural sounding tweeter suitable for high efficiency speaker designs. Thanks to a damped rear chamber lowering the...

www.parts-express.com

Home

Morel CAT 378 1-1/8" Soft Dome Horn TweeterMorel's CAT378 features a hand treated 1-1/8" soft dome, horn loaded for higher efficiency and high dynamic range without power compression. The magnet assembly is vented into a damped rear chamber to lower resonance and to eliminate "honking" at lower...

www.parts-express.com

3 way. Find a high efficiency 4 or 5 inch midrange and pair it with the SB29 or one of those tweeters. The peerless is higher sensitivity, but I don't doubt that the morel sounds better