What is?

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

No, that's now how it usually goes. It's how it occasionally goes. Yes, we do need to strike a balance between the group and the individual, which is why facts are important. However, when both sides are willing to sacrifice facts at the alter of their beliefs, we're left with a giant ball of $hit. I'd suggest that if one has to resort to lies to support their principles, the group, etc, then they would benefit more from introspection and reviewing the facts than gaslighting themselves.

The fact is that I own my body, and that's the only fact anyone will ever need. If not, it's war. If you studied the plans for you made by the evil super wealthy and powerful leaders across the world, then you'd understand they want you to lose your health autonomy, because they're transhumanists, which is the new age term for eugenicists.

How the f*ck is following the leadership of a bunch of corporations or a bunch of gov bureaucrats ever going to be for the greater good? That never ends well. If you want to support covid measures and lockdowns and the world health pandemic treaty and all of that, why? Do you not understand the nature of corporations and bureaucrats? They feed their lives by controlling the people. They don't give a f*ck about your health, your suffering, whether you live or die, they only care about controlling you. None of the lockdown measures worked, lol. It's just a clown show, and idk why I even argue about it. If you don't get it, you're a mouse playing with some cheese.

 

[Old_Slapper]

I work for the local government. I am a direct employee, and not a contractor. During the COVID pandemic, part of my responsibility was to assist the testing sites and ensure all facilities met safety guidelines. That being said, we were all lied to about the dangers of COVID and the vaccines. Did you know that each testing site would receive up to $2500 for every one of their tests that came back positive? Hospitals were getting as much as $30k per COVID death. You would all be amazed on how much corruption there was, and still is, with the COVID crap.

I was most disgusted when Fauci told us that the vaccine stops the spread of COVID.

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

COVID seems to have been a poor attempt at reducing the population.
8 billion people on earth.
7 million dead from COVID.

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

You act as if everything I just said was in support of lying. You’re missing my point. This is why I don’t have deep conversation on the internet. When you back people into a corner and they feel threatened, they will say untrue things in an attempt to back people off. Their motivation is self preservation, while on the other hand, when the other side is lying, it’s to make billions of dollars or cover something up. These 2 lies just don’t quite seem the same to me, but whatever.

I never said they're the same. OTOH, I don't buy the their lies are worse so my lies are justified line of reasoning. I can just as easily flip the script and say "your" lies are worst because they were selfish, had the (greater) potential to cause harm, eroded confidence in all vaccines, etc.

Like I said before, you hold your ideals regarding this issue in higher regard than the truth and I hold the truth, facts, data, etc in higher regard than political ideals. There is certainly a point or standard for which I'd sacrifice the truth, but this
isn't it.

 

[Old_Slapper]

COVID seems to have been a poor attempt at reducing the population.
8 billion people on earth.
7 million dead from COVID.

Most of them were never tested for COVID, or had COVID but died of other causes. That study came out 2 years ago. Actual numbers, for tested deaths, were asked for, but were never brought forward and was shouted down as being insensitive.

I had two good friends die of "COVID." This shocked us all and when asked for the test results, the hospital stated a test COVID test was not performed. They classified it as a COVID death because their condition, at the time of death, met the requirements. The requirements are as simple as the patient needing assistance to breath. One friend died from organ failure, due to cancer, and the other died from old age. He was 92 and didn't have COVID but was intubated before he died.

Here is a quote directly from the Coronavirus Task Force. "If a person has COVID at the time of death, the death will be classified as a COVID, regardless of other health conditions." My co-workers brother died in a car crash. The brother had COVID at the time. His cause of his death was classified as COVID related.

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

The fact is that I own my body, and that's the only fact anyone will ever need. If not, it's war. If you studied the plans for you made by the evil super wealthy and powerful leaders across the world, then you'd understand they want you to lose your health autonomy, because they're transhumanists, which is the new age term for eugenicists.

How the f*ck is following the leadership of a bunch of corporations or a bunch of gov bureaucrats ever going to be for the greater good? That never ends well. If you want to support covid measures and lockdowns and the world health pandemic treaty and all of that, why? Do you not understand the nature of corporations and bureaucrats? They feed their lives by controlling the people. They don't give a f*ck about your health, your suffering, whether you live or die, they only care about controlling you. None of the lockdown measures worked, lol. It's just a clown show, and idk why I even argue about it. If you don't get it, you're a mouse playing with some cheese.

Do I understand the nature of those in power - of course I do as it's on display daily. Nevertheless, I do think these power structures are necessary and we have to take the good with bad and find ways to better regulate & control them. I don't think disinformation campaigns is good way to control these power structures. I don't think lying to public about the vax is justified just becuz we k own Pfizer's motives are less than pure.

 

[Old_Slapper]

Think about this old saying "It is easier to fool a person than it is for that person to admit they have been fooled."

There is way too much info out there that shows we have been fooled. Even the CDC walked a lot of it back, such as how effective the vaccine is and how the vaccine was tested. Fact, more people, who keep getting the boosters, get COVID more often than none vaccinated people. Every one of my employees, who gets the latest booster, comes down with COVID withing a couple months of being vaccinated. Many of the believers, here, realized the issue and stopped.

 

[SlugButter]

I never said they're the same. OTOH, I don't buy the their lies are worse so my lies are justified line of reasoning. I can just as easily flip the script and say "your" lies are worst because they were selfish, had the (greater) potential to cause harm, eroded confidence in all vaccines, etc.

Like I said before, you hold your ideals regarding this issue in higher regard than the truth and I hold the truth, facts, data, etc in higher regard than political ideals. There is certainly a point or standard for which I'd sacrifice the truth, but this
isn't it.

I can agree that lies can’t really be justified.. Why do you think antivax people tell lies? Do you think if a company is going to give drugs to millions of people while making billions of tax dollars they should be held up to a higher standard of truth than a Christian anti-vaxxer on Facebook should be? Why can’t I find specific trial data on the Covid vaccine? Simple things, like blood type reactions and co-morbidity statistics. Maybe they are just bad at their job?

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

I can agree that lies can’t really be justified.. Why do you think antivax people tell lies? Do you think if a company is going to give drugs to millions of people while making billions of tax dollars they should be held up to a higher standard of truth than a Christian anti-vaxxer on Facebook should be? Why can’t I find specific trial data on the Covid vaccine? Simple things, like blood type reactions and co-morbidity statistics. Maybe they are just bad at their job?

I think antivax people tell lies because people are liars and can find all sorts of ways to justify the lies. Do I think corporations should be held to a higher standard than Joe Blow on Facebook - maybe. Alot of the Joe Blows on Facebook ended up wielding significant influence. I don't know that blood type was tracked, but I wouldn't call that "simple thing" either. I don't know about the covid trials, but a lot of trials avoid unhealthy/unhealthier individuals in testing.

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

Think about this old saying "It is easier to fool a person than it is for that person to admit they have been fooled."

There is way too much info out there that shows we have been fooled. Even the CDC walked a lot of it back, such as how effective the vaccine is and how the vaccine was tested. Fact, more people, who keep getting the boosters, get COVID more often than none vaccinated people. Every one of my employees, who gets the latest booster, comes down with COVID withing a couple months of being vaccinated. Many of the believers, here, realized the issue and stopped.

I'd say it's also really easy for people to fool themselves. For example, what you call "walking back" is really just the CDC reflecting data in real time. The vaccine went from highly effective when Alpha and Delta were dominate and it's efficacy faded with the emergence of Omicron and other strains. Given the current facts, data, stats, etc I'd say why bother with the vax and CDC "walk back" reflects the current reality. When there was huge spike in deaths in April/May 2021 and we were witnessing India literally burning piles of bodies in parking lots and mRNA efficacy was ~90-95%, then the vaccine looks a little more appealing. It's kinda like Hifonics amps were considered high end in the 80s-90s, but now Hifonics are considered over rated crap to avoid. That isn't because I'm "walking back" on Hifonics, it's because Hifonics aren't the same quality, inexpensive reliable amps are available, full bridge technology, etc.

 

[Old_Slapper]

When I say walking back, I was meaning the facts are changing. Facts like them stating vaccine prevents you from getting COVID. Now they say it will only reduce the symptoms of the virus. Or you won't spread the virus if your vaccinated, to you can still spread it.

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

1911 definition. Why do people think the meaning changed just for the COVID vax?
So they could later complain it didn't do what they THOUGHT it did, and come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories?

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

Even money says that no one in this group who believes or denies the vax has 1/10,000 of the data set used in these efficacy studies.
The people in my family who were not vaccinated are the ones who got sick. That data set means squat as it's so small in the context of my city, state, country, the world. The world data set tells the truth.
Any claims to the contrary made without analyzing a similar data set are bunk.

The efficacy and effectiveness of COVID-19 vaccines around the world: a mini-review and meta-analysis - Annals of Clinical Microbiology and Antimicrobials

Objectives This meta-analysis evaluated the Efficacy and Effectiveness of several COVID-19 vaccines, including AstraZeneca, Pfizer, Moderna, Bharat, and Johnson & Johnson, to better estimate their immunogenicity, benefits, or side effects. Methods Studies reporting the Efficacy and Effectiveness...

ann-clinmicrob.biomedcentral.com

 

[Buck 5,000+ posts]

1911 definition. Why do people think the meaning changed just for the COVID vax?
So they could later complain it didn't do what they THOUGHT it did, and come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories?

View attachment 56010

Because mRNA doesn't work like that. Injecting mRNA is not injecting a modified or dead or any type of virus. mRNA is genetic coding for the cell to use, fundamentally; mRNA has absolutely nothing to do with injecting a virus or anything like it directly into you.

 

[Jimi77 Premium Member]

When I say walking back, I was meaning the facts are changing. Facts like them stating vaccine prevents you from getting COVID. Now they say it will only reduce the symptoms of the virus. Or you won't spread the virus if your vaccinated, to you can still spread it.

1911 definition. Why do people think the meaning changed just for the COVID vax? So they could later complain it didn't do what they THOUGHT it did, and come up with all sorts of conspiracy theories?

View attachment 56010

We've know for a good century that vaccines aren't 100% effective. I'd guess every single one of us knows at least one person who got a flu shot but still caught the flu. So we all knew going into this that vaccines aren't 100% effective.

I think a lot of people like to play word games in an attempt to mischaracterize the opposition. The way "prevent" got perverted is a great example. We have have traffic laws to prevent accidents and we use seat belts to prevent injuries when those accidents do occur. Nobody thinks "prevent" is absolute when we're talking about car accidents and related injuries. But when it comes to wearing masks, social distancing or getting the jab, suddenly prevention took on a new meaning. And of course "we" fall short of this unattainable target and then the anti-vaxxers running around giving each other high 5s and saying "see, I told you so."

And when Dr Walensky lied about the absolute efficacy of vaccine, that was inexcusable, however bear in mind that when she made that statement the CDC website contained accurate information about the jab's efficacy and Walensky was getting roasted on Twitter in real time for her lie.