what amps to power 3-way dipole, $800 budget

[thadman 10+ year member]

After reading up on diyaudio.com on what amps to use for my 3-way dipole towers, I am absolutely clueless:crap: Im not sure whether pro audio amps vs high end home amps make a difference sonically, and if I'd prefer either over another.

I need to power a pair of Peerless HDS 1" tweeters, a pair of Seas Excel W18Es, and a pair of Dayton RS15 HFs

The Peerless has a 93dB (8ohm) efficiency

The Seas Excel has a 86.5dB (8ohm) efficiency

The Dayton RS15 has a 90dB (4ohm), so effectively 87dB efficiency

Since the tweeter is roughly +6dB over the seas+dayton, im going to need 4x the power for both the seas and dayton

Im going to be using a DCX2496 for crossover/equalization and maybe a DEQ2496 for RTA use and other equalization purposes, if that means anything. Im also not sure what cd player ill be using (ive got an old cd player from the mid 1990s, sony or yamaha something along those lines)

What combination of amplifiers would you use to power this setup? I have a maximum budget of $800 (although I'd like to spend closer to $600).

I had fancied the idea of using 6 300watt BASH plate amps ($630 shipped from partsexpress), but am wondering about their high frequency performance.

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[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

If your going to use pro amps, do not go cheap and get any Behringer amps, thats all I've got to say.

800 bucks for three amps seems like a pretty small budget to me though...

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

In the home environment do amplifiers play a large role in sound quality? Other than having a lot of power for dynamic purposes, do amplifiers have a strong sonic presence?

 

[T3mpest 10+ year member]

No, not really, no more than in a car. There are differences, but they are minute and can be EQ'ed out anyway, assuming you hear them in the first place. Secondly, there's nothing wrong with behringer. There's a large difference between bottom end pro audio and bottom end car or home audio, in terms of quality.

 

[ballstothewall 10+ year member]

No, not really, no more than in a car. There are differences, but they are minute and can be EQ'ed out anyway, assuming you hear them in the first place. Secondly, there's nothing wrong with behringer. There's a large difference between bottom end pro audio and bottom end car or home audio, in terms of quality.

Theres a reason I replaced my behringer with QSC...

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

How are Alesis amplifiers? or gainclones?

Theres a nice 50 x 4 @ 8 gainclone on ebay for $219 buy-it-now

 

[joetama 5,000+ posts]

Theres a reason I replaced my behringer with QSC...

I agree on the QSC > Behringer thing. Behringer amps are nothing special at all and are pretty lame vs. QSC or LabGruppen.

How are Alesis amplifiers? or gainclones?
Theres a nice 50 x 4 @ 8 gainclone on ebay for $219 buy-it-now

It's a good rule of thumb that if it's cheap there is a reason for it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif....

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

Gainclones or chipamps are low powered amplifiers with weak low impedance

drive. They are what they are. I don't think they are worth the money unless you

built one for a few dollars buying scrap parts and getting free-bees.

Re: Behringer EP2500.. it's a QSC RMX2450 clone.

RMX2450 pic;

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proamps/RMX2450-1.JPG

EP2500 pic;

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proamps/EP2500_older.JPG

I saw some 2 ohm tests and the EP2500 was a little weak in 2 ohm performance,

otherwise no issues. That pic I saw a couple years ago created an optical illusion

as it appears to have a smaller toroid transformer.

Then I found a new EP2500 pic;

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proamps/EP2500-1.jpg

If you look closely, the EP2500 PCB design is smaller making it appear to have

a smaller transformer in the first pic, but the new pic seems to indicate the

EP2500 does have a nice sized transformer. Who knows, Behringer could have

installed a bigger one in later models.. Point is, it's a valid amplifier to consider

since it's a clone. The only issue would be the transformer and it seems to be fine.

Proamp SQ is fine, don't worry about it.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

How much of a difference would I notice between say a QSC PLX1602 and a Behringer EP2500? The QSC would cost a lot more, and 98% of the time im going to be playing these speakers at extremely low volumes. The lowest impendance I'd expect the amps to drive would be 4ohms (all others would be 8ohms), and that would be for the Dayton Reference 15s. The amp would be running stereo (not bridged).

Would a Behringer EP2500 be just as good as the PLX1602 (insert other awesome proamp here), considering my circumstances?

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

You want to build a fully active 3 way loudpeaker + sub.

You need 6 amplifier channels + sub.

The tweeter and midrange amplification doesn't have to be as robust

as the woofer and subwoofer amp.

To drive the woofers in your 3 way loudspeaker, I would get a beefier amp,

no chipamps, no gainclones, and I don't even think I'd run the Behringer A500

in spite that can probably drive them ok since you don't plan to push the system

hard. The A500 is a clone of one of the Alesis amps.

To drive the tweeters and midrange you can drive them with chipamps,

gainclones, low powered tube amps, etc., but I can't guarantee that you

will be satisfied.

Also, there are issues to examine. Do you three proamps stacked? If so,

do you want the same brand? if so, do you want the same model number or

scale the amps according to duty? ie, lets say you went with A500 amps,

a three stack would look nice but the A500 driving the woofers might be

anemic, I don't know if it will satsify you. Suppose you went with a three stack

of EP1500 amps, the same question comes up. Will one EP1500 drive the woofers

to your liking? What if mixed models? What if you did two EP1500 to drive mids/tweeters and one EP2500 for woofers? Looks nice and more power allocated to the woofers? What if you bought a PLX amp and added two A500,

the three stack would look funny mixing brands. Aside from functionality, you

have the cosmetic issue to think about.

Another variable is fan noise and interfacing to consumer gear. The A500 is

RCA input, no fans. A nice bonus. Two of these amps, one for a pair of tweeters

and one for a pair of midrange might be pretty cool as you don't have to worry

about the fan noise issue, no need to worry about fan mods if you think the fan

noise is too high, and if it has RCA input, one less worry about interfacing. You

could buy one A500 and test it. Connect the tweeters only and listen? Is it ok?

if so, connect the amp to the midranges only and listen. Is it ok? If so, try the

amp driving the woofers. Is it ok? If not, then get the bigger proamp just for the

woofers and use A500 for the top end. The six pack of Bash 300w is a neat

idea too if you can bypass the internal crossover.

Compare these ideas to a normal home audio idea. Someone would normally

suggest getting an ATI 1506 power amp for your application as it would make

alot of sense. A six channel amp in a single chasis. Perfect! But the price is high.

SQ won't be any better than the other ideas.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

How does (2) Crown XLS-202D amplifiers (1 for tweeter, 1 for midrange) + (1) Crown XLS-602D for the Dayton Reference 15s sound?

I could get them all brand new for $794 +s/h

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

You can make that setup work. Just note that XLS has no 2 ohm power ratings

as it is an entry level amp, hence the lower price. Many people on the AVS

forum had great success with the XLS driving ordinary HT speakers. A few had

problems driving subwoofers at low impedance with higher power, the XLS

didn't deliver. You won't have any issues driving tweeters and mids with the

XLS and to drive the 4 ohm woofer it will probably work fine for your application.

but....

Another idea if you are patient.

Get two used QSC RMX850's on Ebay for ~$200 each.

Get one used QSC RMX1850HD or RMX2450 on Ebay for ~$400.

More power than XLS and RMX has 2 ohm power ratings.

Probably the best bang for buck is those 'buy it now' EP2500's on Ebay

for $246 - $269 each. Even if you derate them, they still have alot power

for the money, way better than spending over $1000 on a fancy high powered

reciever, should outperform the XLS series thermally as the XLS has weak

internal heatsinking.

Crown XLS402 guts;

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proamps/Crown_402a.JPG

Where's da heatsinks? lol ... It's just a piece of metal, not a heatsink

extrusion normally found in better designs. This is one way to reduce the cost

but performance suffers, ie .. no 2 ohm ratings.

The EP2500 has real heatsink extrusion with the fins pointing towards each

other, then the fan blows air through the slots, ie wind tunnel type of cooling.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/proamps/EP2500-1.jpg

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

I have no need to run the amplifiers below 4ohms

3 EP2500s runs $820 shipped from eBay vs $860 shipped for the Crowns (they come with $100 of mail-in-rebates, so effectively $760)

The QSCs are an option, but them being used vs new is kind of putting me off.

Would the Behringers still be better?

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

I don't see any issue with used amps vs. new. This is one area of audio that

you shouldn't worry too much about. I bought 12 proamps used last January and

saved huge $$$ and they all worked. All they needed was the covers removed

and blow in some compressed air to get rid of dust. I don't think people scam as much

with proaudio gear vs. maybe car audio stuff because you know those *kids* in

car audio like to pull off the scams more than the folks spending big coin on proaudio rigs.

// harr harr // joke

There is always risk of buying used gear and it not working so you have to

analyze that risk/reward ratio and determine what is best for you. Even if

you don't plan to abuse the Crown XLS amps at 2 ohm per channel, it is always nice to know that

the amps you buy are over-engineered as you may do something esoteric in

the future.

The good news is. The folks on the AVS forum said that rev D XLS amps

have variable speed fans, they just came out recently so if you do buy XLS,

verify that you get rev D amps as it won't be fun doing fan mods as the older

models have no variable speed fans so when you turn on the amp, you get

high speed fan noise. People have done resistor mods or fan replacement

mods to reduce the fan noise, the resistor mod reduces fan speed which

reduces air flow and you reduce cooling - not cool [pun //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif ]

If you still can't decide on EP vs. XLS, one idea is to buy one of each and play

around with the amps to see what you really like then re-selling or returning

the amp you dislike, albiet you lose some $$$ but you gain peace of mind

that you made the right decision considering you need three amps.

 

[thadman 10+ year member]

Yeah, the crowns are "D"