RE SE15 or Dayton HO15?

[bass_lover1 10+ year member]

Why not go with a pair of the HOs ported?

 

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

Why not go with a pair of the HOs ported?

A single 15 has more cone area and maps out to be lower and louder in WinISD, but in addition, I recently discovered that my HO10's enclosure has port noise and I'm not liking it... I'd prefer to have a little summer project, make my system sound better and get lower, as well as stick to the clean look of one sub.

Plus, I just think a single 15 looks pretty damn awesome lol

EDIT: Here's the SPL graph between a single HO15 and dual HO10's ported. 15 in red, 10's in blue. You can see how much louder the 15 is overall, and in particular at 40Hz and below, which is most important to me. I was primarily looking to extend my low end, which a 15 will achieve much nicer than two 10's.

 

[sonic purity 10+ year member]

I got a pair of RE SE12's and they are very accurate and loud. Cant go wrong with em

 

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

How do I figure? Look at the specs...
SE: Higher Vas & Higher Qts, as well as greater Xmax = better suited for large sealed enclosure

HO: Lower Qts, and lower Xmax = better suited for ported

And I agree that the HO will do nicely sealed, but 12mm linear excursion capability will be the limiting factor.

Well unfortunately, WinISD's calculations disagree with just a simple perusal of the specs. EBP (Efficiency Bandwidth Product) is the manner in which one would determine which type of enclosure is more suitable for a particular driver. On a scale from 0-100, 0 is an absolutely closed box driver, and 100 is a vented driver. Anything over 50 is more suited for a vented box, less than 50 - a sealed box. The HO has an EBP of 58, meaning it is more suited for a ported box than an sealed box, however, the SE has an EBP of 78. This means that the SE is a substantially better performer in a vented enclosure. I don't doubt that the SE would sound great sealed, but it's not the best solution.

Just for reference, ported is pink, sealed is yellow.

 

[bass_lover1 10+ year member]

No offense man, but WinISD isn't exactly something I would base my decisions on. It's a nice tool, but it's not even remotely close to being accurate of what will happen in a car. Also, if you're worried that a pair of the HO 10s cannot play low, and since you feel like believing a computer program over my real world experience, i'll just let you know that they are louder and play lower than the 15" XXX they replaced.

EBP is again a nice starting point, but if you've ever read The Loudspeaker Cookbook, it isn't the end all be all, and to add to that, I dunno where you got an EBP of 78 for the SE15, using the specs on RE's website it comes to 40....which hints at sealed, just like the poster above said.

 

[TeoTorriatte 10+ year member]

Well unfortunately, WinISD's calculations disagree with just a simple perusal of the specs. EBP (Efficiency Bandwidth Product) is the manner in which one would determine which type of enclosure is more suitable for a particular driver. On a scale from 0-100, 0 is an absolutely closed box driver, and 100 is a vented driver. Anything over 50 is more suited for a vented box, less than 50 - a sealed box. The HO has an EBP of 58, meaning it is more suited for a ported box than an sealed box, however, the SE has an EBP of 78. This means that the SE is a substantially better performer in a vented enclosure. I don't doubt that the SE would sound great sealed, but it's not the best solution.
Just for reference, ported is pink, sealed is yellow.

Double check your parameters... you've got something entered wrong. You should be getting a sealed -3 dB point of ~37 Hz, not 62 Hz. And ported shouldn't dip down around 60 Hz like your graph shows... that's an indication that your Qes or Qts parameter is entered way lower than what it should be.
RE SE Specs...

15"

Electrical Q Value -Qes: 0.55

Mechanical Q Value -Qms: 4.3

Total Speaker Q Value -Qts: 0.49

Free Air Resonance -Fs: 22 Hz

Equivalent Compliance -Vas: 209 liters

One-Way, Linear Excursion -Xmax: 18 mm

Efficiency -SPL 1W/1m: 88 dB SPL

Effective Piston Area -Sd: 810 cm^2

DC Resistance -Re: 2.8 ohm

Nominal Impedance -Znom: Dual 2/4 ohm

Thermal Power Handling -Pe: 600 W

Force Factor -Bl: 17.7

As BL1 stated, EBP comes out at 40.

I get an EBP of 51 for the HO, so it would also do well sealed... but I could tell that by looking at Qts, Fs, and Vas, too -- EBP pretty much agrees. But again, the 12mm Xmax is going to be the only drawback for sealing the HO. But if you get the output you desire without exceeding linear limits, then it would do just fine.

 

[djman37 5,000+ posts]

another thread on the exact same thing.

How about the Titanic 15" since it's $178

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-420

and I show the HO 15" at $159 now.

so does price play a factor now at $40 less than a SE?

 

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

another thread on the exact same thing.How about the Titanic 15" since it's $178

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-420

and I show the HO 15" at $159 now.

so does price play a factor now at $40 less than a SE?

I included shipping... the HO15 is still $178 to your door and the SE is $200. Price doesn't weigh on my decision much, at least not a $22 difference as seen here.

No offense man, but WinISD isn't exactly something I would base my decisions on. It's a nice tool, but it's not even remotely close to being accurate of what will happen in a car. Also, if you're worried that a pair of the HO 10s cannot play low, and since you feel like believing a computer program over my real world experience, i'll just let you know that they are louder and play lower than the 15" XXX they replaced.
EBP is again a nice starting point, but if you've ever read The Loudspeaker Cookbook, it isn't the end all be all, and to add to that, I dunno where you got an EBP of 78 for the SE15, using the specs on RE's website it comes to 40....which hints at sealed, just like the poster above said.

None taken, I'm new at this and was led to believe that WinISD was the end all, be all tool for determining how drivers would play out. I don't doubt for a second that the HO10's would be loud and get low, however, I'm sure you that XXX15 you replaced and now your HO10's are running off much more power than I have available. I would only be able to provide 600RMS to BOTH 10's, so only 300 a piece for the time being. In the future, I may upgrade to a PDX1.1000 and have 500 available to both, but that won't be for quite some time.

Now as far as getting lower than your XXX15 - really?! I would have thought that adding another 10 would not do anything for how low the sub stage actually extends, but would just increase the volume of those lower frequencies... Regardless, **relying on WinISD again** the single 15 looks to be 9dB's louder @ 20Hz and 5dB's louder @ 30Hz, then 1dB louder across the rest of the board. That is what WinISD says so I won't take it to heart as 100% accurate, but it would make sense, seeing as the single 15 has more cone area than two 10's, right?

EDIT: By the way, I didn't intend to criticize you guys or anything, I just had the idea that WinISD could be trusted 100%. After checking the driver params for the SE, the "auto-calculated" unknowns (in particular, Qes and Vas), were off by quite a bit... after re-adjusting them it wouldn't let me save the params because it said they were inconsistent...oh well.

 

[djman37 5,000+ posts]

I included shipping... the HO15 is still $178 to your door and the SE is $200. Price doesn't weigh on my decision much, at least not a $22 difference as seen here.


None taken, I'm new at this and was led to believe that WinISD was the end all, be all tool for determining how drivers would play out. I don't doubt for a second that the HO10's would be loud and get low, however, I'm sure you that XXX15 you replaced and now your HO10's are running off much more power than I have available. I would only be able to provide 600RMS to BOTH 10's, so only 300 a piece for the time being. In the future, I may upgrade to a PDX1.1000 and have 500 available to both, but that won't be for quite some time.

Now as far as getting lower than your XXX15 - really?! I would have thought that adding another 10 would not do anything for how low the sub stage actually extends, but would just increase the volume of those lower frequencies... Regardless, **relying on WinISD again** the single 15 looks to be 9dB's louder @ 20Hz and 5dB's louder @ 30Hz, then 1dB louder across the rest of the board. That is what WinISD says so I won't take it to heart as 100% accurate, but it would make sense, seeing as the single 15 has more cone area than two 10's, right?

EDIT: By the way, I didn't intend to criticize you guys or anything, I just had the idea that WinISD could be trusted 100%. After checking the driver params for the SE, the "auto-calculated" unknowns (in particular, Qes and Vas), were off by quite a bit... after re-adjusting them it wouldn't let me save the params because it said they were inconsistent...oh well.

they both look like good drivers. I have a dayton quatro 12 in HT right now tuned at like 22....it's good at 67 watts! I don't think you can go WRONG with either. I've owned SEs and thought they were GREAT all-around subs. I did 2 12's in 1.8 each tuned to 32 for my Xterra and it was gooood...

 

[bass_lover1 10+ year member]

None taken, I'm new at this and was led to believe that WinISD was the end all, be all tool for determining how drivers would play out. I don't doubt for a second that the HO10's would be loud and get low, however, I'm sure you that XXX15 you replaced and now your HO10's are running off much more power than I have available. I would only be able to provide 600RMS to BOTH 10's, so only 300 a piece for the time being. In the future, I may upgrade to a PDX1.1000 and have 500 available to both, but that won't be for quite some time.

Now as far as getting lower than your XXX15 - really?! I would have thought that adding another 10 would not do anything for how low the sub stage actually extends, but would just increase the volume of those lower frequencies... Regardless, **relying on WinISD again** the single 15 looks to be 9dB's louder @ 20Hz and 5dB's louder @ 30Hz, then 1dB louder across the rest of the board. That is what WinISD says so I won't take it to heart as 100% accurate, but it would make sense, seeing as the single 15 has more cone area than two 10's, right?

EDIT: By the way, I didn't intend to criticize you guys or anything, I just had the idea that WinISD could be trusted 100%. After checking the driver params for the SE, the "auto-calculated" unknowns (in particular, Qes and Vas), were off by quite a bit... after re-adjusting them it wouldn't let me save the params because it said they were inconsistent...oh well.

WinISD is good at giving you a rough idea, but you have to remember that the graph is showing you output in an anechoic chamber, meaning there are no reflections, no cabin gain, there are basically no outside influences, unfortunately no one drives around in one of those so there ARE outside influences in a car environment.

The XXX15 was dual 4ohms, range bridge at 8ohms on my linear power 2.2hv, so roughly 6-800 watts rms, being that the HOs are single 10s, they are also bridge 2 8ohms mono, so again roughly the same power. You also have to remember that my car is a sedan, VW Passat more specifically, so it's very well deadened from the factory, you driving a hatch already has a slight advantage over me, I have no doubts that a pair of the HOs will please you even with only 300 watts per driver.

Low frequency extension is derived from displacement. Bore*stroke....or in speaker terms, cone area*suspension travel. So yes, adding a second 10 will help in this department, because you just doubled cone area.

Now, I'm not saying the single 15 is a bad option, because IMO Dayton makes the best budget drivers on the market. I've used the 12HO sealed prior to my XXX, then went back to the HOs again, but with the 10s this time. I've never had my hand at the 15s, I'm very content with my substage as it is currently, that and I don't feel that the differences in output are worth the extra space needed to get there, the 15 will require a larger box. You gotta remember that the 10s only need .7 cubes per driver for a ported enclosure, I believe the 15 needs 2.5-3 cubes, but though I've never looked into it.

Regardless, either way you really can't go wrong, but if you already enjoy the sound of the HO, I think you might be disappointed going with the SE. Not saying the SE is a bad driver, but it has nothing special done to the motor to help lower distortion, whereas the Dayton driver uses a copper ring above and below the pole to keep inductance low, which helps reduce motor related distortion.

I'd stick with the Daytons, either add a second 10 or go with the single 15, either way you need to build a new box, and you really can't go wrong with either.

 

[jmanpc 5,000+ posts]

I'd go with the Dayton Titanic. Never heard anything but good about them, not to mention everyone and their sister has owned an SE. Be different //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[TeoTorriatte 10+ year member]

After checking the driver params for the SE, the "auto-calculated" unknowns (in particular, Qes and Vas), were off by quite a bit... after re-adjusting them it wouldn't let me save the params because it said they were inconsistent...oh well.

Regarding WinISD and entering new driver data...
You should start at the top... enter Qes & Qms, and then tab through Qts to let it auto-calc. Then enter Fs & Vas (make sure your 'units' are correct, i.e. liters or ft^3).

Then enter Re & Sd, and let it auto-calc the rest of the Electro-Mech section.

Then enter Xmax & Pe and let it auto-calc.

Now you can save it -- I just did this as I typed, and I was able to save it. The only thing I noticed is that BL didn't jive with RE's specs when I entered the listed ReVC spec, but they could be listing the series-wired BL spec and the individual coil ReVC, so it really isn't a big issue. It gives you enough info to at least get a more accurate model than what you were getting before.

 

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

I'd go with the Dayton Titanic. Never heard anything but good about them, not to mention everyone and their sister has owned an SE. Be different //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

So you would personally opt for the Titanic MKIII over the HO? I've read reviews of the Titanic in my considerations and all are rave, but all I've seen them used for is HT... has anyone used them in a car environment yet?

I'm gonna search for a thread about it...

 

[kidwolf909 10+ year member]

Regarding WinISD and entering new driver data...
You should start at the top... enter Qes & Qms, and then tab through Qts to let it auto-calc. Then enter Fs & Vas (make sure your 'units' are correct, i.e. liters or ft^3).

Then enter Re & Sd, and let it auto-calc the rest of the Electro-Mech section.

Then enter Xmax & Pe and let it auto-calc.

Now you can save it -- I just did this as I typed, and I was able to save it. The only thing I noticed is that BL didn't jive with RE's specs when I entered the listed ReVC spec, but they could be listing the series-wired BL spec and the individual coil ReVC, so it really isn't a big issue. It gives you enough info to at least get a more accurate model than what you were getting before.

Well based on how you said to enter everything, I mapped out the Titanic MKIII 15" in WinISD and it digs considerably lower and louder than the HO15 or pair of 10's. 6dB's louder @ 20Hz, just as a reference. However, this is in a 6.5ft^3 box @ 20Hz tuning lol.

When brought down to a reasonable size for my application (4.0-4.5ft^3), tuned to 23Hz, the Titanic is nearly identical to the HO according to WinISD. It owns the low LOW-end, sub 20Hz, but above there, it's almost the same.

I'm heading out for the night, but I'll check back in with you all later //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Thanks for all the help and clarification!

 

[TeoTorriatte 10+ year member]

This is one thing that the Titanic MkIII has going for it: http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-420dumax.pdf

Not a bad BL curve for an overhung design. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif