Quick question about my next setup

[CplCuddles]

Hey guys, I recently lost my JL system I had goin' and I plan to just go ahead with starting to get my components for my next system. I had 2 12" JL w3v3's @ 500W a piece. My next setup I have planned (This is the dream here) is 2 12" Sundown Zv4-Rev2s @ 5000W a piece. Obviously that is going to be quite a bit of dough to dish out to do it all at once. My question is if I were to just get 1 12 then get a second later what would be the implications of doing so? Also, Probably a retarded question, but would the single Zv4 be "better" then the JLs together (purely opinionated question I know, but I do what I want)?

Click to read more...

 

[shauncox26]

Leaps and bounds better then the jls. And 5k each is a lot of power to run. Have you ever been involved in that kind of install. 10k is several thousand in electrical.

 

[CplCuddles]

Leaps and bounds better then the jls. And 5k each is a lot of power to run. Have you ever been involved in that kind of install. 10k is several thousand in electrical.

I haven't done anything this big yet, but you have to sometime. I know the full 10k system is a lot of money, That's why I've been thinking to just do 1 12 atm then finish the system at a later point. And when I asked if it was "better" I meant the single Sundown Zv4 on 5k vs the 2 JLs on 1k.

 

[SimulatedZero 10+ year member]

Define better. If you want louder, it depends on your box. If you want it to sound better, the Zv4 is a much higher quality sub with lower distortion and again it depends on your box.

2 12's is going to be double the surface area and far more efficient. You're cutting your surface area in half and double the power to compensate and then doubling it again. Assuming 100% of that energy is turned into sound waves, you could see a 3 db increase across the entire response curve. If you want to chase numbers, you could easily add 6 to 10 db by tuning higher and trying to match the frequency of your vehicle.

So, are you after a daily build that sounds good and hits hard, you might see more noticeable volume in that setup, depending on your box. If you want to hit the mid 140's, you easily could , but you'd be sacrificing the low lows and how clean it sounds.

What was the exact setup you had those JL's in?

 

[CplCuddles]

Define better. If you want louder, it depends on your box. If you want it to sound better, the Zv4 is a much higher quality sub with lower distortion and again it depends on your box.
2 12's is going to be double the surface area and far more efficient. You're cutting your surface area in half and double the power to compensate and then doubling it again. Assuming 100% of that energy is turned into sound waves, you could see a 3 db increase across the entire response curve. If you want to chase numbers, you could easily add 6 to 10 db by tuning higher and trying to match the frequency of your vehicle.

So, are you after a daily build that sounds good and hits hard, you might see more noticeable volume in that setup, depending on your box. If you want to hit the mid 140's, you easily could , but you'd be sacrificing the low lows and how clean it sounds.

What was the exact setup you had those JL's in?

I'd prefer to keep it a daily, not looking to do high numbers, but rather just be an overall good sounding/intense system. I like to have my stuff tuned low around 30hz. My 2 JL's were in a ported box (dunno the dimensions), they were running 500W a piece to each. I had 2 JL Slashv2 500/1v2 amps, I believe it was tuned to 32Hz. I don't want "louder" atm, I just want it to be similar. As I said before I do want to get 2 Zv4 12s, but that will be in the distant future, I was just wondering whether I should buy one for now and go with that or run with nothing until I have enough for both 12s and everything else I will need. I've been told that buying one, using it for a bit, then buying another and adding it in is not the best idea.

 

[SimulatedZero 10+ year member]

Depending on how you build your box and the T/S parameters of the Zv4. I'm not familiar with the Z line from Sundown, but 5000w RMS to it seems a bit high from what I know of their gear.

Download WinISD version 7, its free, and model some boxes, see what you like. Keep in mind, that if you pass the RMS rating of the sub, the efficiency will start to die down and you'll see less and less volume for the more power.

Bottom line, one Zv4 at 2500w should, theoretically, be about the same as two JL w3's. Again, depends on your boxes. For daily listening, when you model your box out, I would avoid anything more then a 4 or 5 db peak above the rest of the system. That'll make some notes hit real hard all of sudden and then die off on others.

And there's no reason you can't build a one sub system now and add another sub later. Its what I did and my system got better. You just can't cut another hole in your box and slap the sub in it. You'll need a new box designed around two drivers and the extra power instead of one. I went from 1 Polk DXi on 300 watts in 3.2 ft^3 at 32hz to 2 of them on 500 watts in a 6ft^3 at 28hz. I got a smoother response curve and more output over the one 12. Now, if I had made the box 6.4ft^3 and stayed at 32 hz I would have gotten about a 6 db increase. As it was I saw about 4 to 5 with the smoother response. It was enough of a difference to go from "that's pretty nice" to "now we're talking". You can add a second sub, just do it intelligently.

 

[CplCuddles]

Depending on how you build your box and the T/S parameters of the Zv4. I'm not familiar with the Z line from Sundown, but 5000w RMS to it seems a bit high from what I know of their gear.
Download WinISD version 7, its free, and model some boxes, see what you like. Keep in mind, that if you pass the RMS rating of the sub, the efficiency will start to die down and you'll see less and less volume for the more power.

Bottom line, one Zv4 at 2500w should, theoretically, be about the same as two JL w3's. Again, depends on your boxes. For daily listening, when you model your box out, I would avoid anything more then a 4 or 5 db peak above the rest of the system. That'll make some notes hit real hard all of sudden and then die off on others.

And there's no reason you can't build a one sub system now and add another sub later. Its what I did and my system got better. You just can't cut another hole in your box and slap the sub in it. You'll need a new box designed around two drivers and the extra power instead of one. I went from 1 Polk DXi on 300 watts in 3.2 ft^3 at 32hz to 2 of them on 500 watts in a 6ft^3 at 28hz. I got a smoother response curve and more output over the one 12. Now, if I had made the box 6.4ft^3 and stayed at 32 hz I would have gotten about a 6 db increase. As it was I saw about 4 to 5 with the smoother response. It was enough of a difference to go from "that's pretty nice" to "now we're talking". You can add a second sub, just do it intelligently.

Ok, so I will prob do the one for now then add one later. Next question, Should I just buy a 5k amp? or should I buy a 2.5k amp? then when I get the second sub should I buy a 5k if I didn't or should I just get another 2.5k? Also, I was thinking that more like 3k or even 3.5k is better for the Zv4, I will make my electrical be able to handle it for obv, but I've seen Zv4s on daily doing 5k no problem. Also again, What brand of amp should I go with? I'd prefer to keep it sundown stuff or maybe cresendo, but a lot of people talk about taramps, they seem kinda cheap but i dunno.

 

[SimulatedZero 10+ year member]

Ok, so I will prob do the one for now then add one later. Next question, Should I just buy a 5k amp? or should I buy a 2.5k amp? then when I get the second sub should I buy a 5k if I didn't or should I just get another 2.5k? Also, I was thinking that more like 3k or even 3.5k is better for the Zv4, I will make my electrical be able to handle it for obv, but I've seen Zv4s on daily doing 5k no problem. Also again, What brand of amp should I go with? I'd prefer to keep it sundown stuff or maybe cresendo, but a lot of people talk about taramps, they seem kinda cheap but i dunno.

Ok, so I took a look at the Zv4 and I see that its rated at 1750w RMS. I'm not going to tell you that it can't be run higher, but I am going to say there are trade offs. Two things, first is like I days before, the more you go over rated power, the less of that power is going to be turned into sound. Adding more subs to take that power would be more efficient. Second, heat kills subs. The less efficient the power transfer to sound, the more gets wasted as heat. I can almost guarantee if you run a pure 5000w sine wave to one of those subs for ten minutes, it'll pop. That being said, most people don't listen to their system at absolute max power for extended periods of time, but it happens. You can have that much power on tap per sub, but be aware that the hotter in runs, the shorter the lifespan and the more likely to are to blow that coil. You can put a crazy amount of power on sub's for short bursts and be fine. That's why people burp subs.

Keeping all that in mind, I would probably get a Sundown SD6000 to have on tap. That way you can easily send rated power to both subs without straining the amplifier. The harder you push an amp, the more distortion and chance of clipping you have. Both of which cause heat and can blow your sub. Those Zv4 setups youve seen probably weren't being run at full tilt for a half commute everyday. They probably had is running hard and then really cranked it for demos or bursts. But, j could be wrong.

Another good option would be the Skar SK4500. Its supposedly very similar to the Sundown Amps but a not cheaper. You'd have to double check that. Crescendo and Digital Designs also make quality amps.

Here's a listing of amps and their tested power (sorry if this isn't allowed mods)

Amp-Dyno-Results

As far as your electrical goes, your going to be in the area of 350 to 400 amps of draw depending on volatge sag for 5000w. You'll need an alt that can handle that of you want to run that all the time. Otherwise, you'll need a substantial battery bank to handle the bursts when you want it.

You'll want:

A High Output Alternator (350+ amps)

The Big 3 (upgrading chasis ground, alt power wire, and battery power wires)

0 Gauge Wire (maybe more than one run? Your getting out of what I've done and know with that one.)

And high cap battery under the hood and probably two by the amp.

I would double check electrical requirements, I've never done hands on stuff with a huge install.

The take aways are, I would get one high quality amp around 4500 to 5000 watts and have both subs on it. Use a DMM and set your gain to the 2000w per sub area. You can always push it harder, but bear in mind, you might blow your $700 subs eventually. Besides, in the right enclosure, 2000w will be more than enough to take full advantage of the 70mm excursion. Just make sure you give enough airspace and port area. And I'd tune a little low for a daily setup if I were you.

 

[CplCuddles]

Ok, so I took a look at the Zv4 and I see that its rated at 1750w RMS. I'm not going to tell you that it can't be run higher, but I am going to say there are trade offs. Two things, first is like I days before, the more you go over rated power, the less of that power is going to be turned into sound. Adding more subs to take that power would be more efficient. Second, heat kills subs. The less efficient the power transfer to sound, the more gets wasted as heat. I can almost guarantee if you run a pure 5000w sine wave to one of those subs for ten minutes, it'll pop. That being said, most people don't listen to their system at absolute max power for extended periods of time, but it happens. You can have that much power on tap per sub, but be aware that the hotter in runs, the shorter the lifespan and the more likely to are to blow that coil. You can put a crazy amount of power on sub's for short bursts and be fine. That's why people burp subs.
Keeping all that in mind, I would probably get a Sundown SD6000 to have on tap. That way you can easily send rated power to both subs without straining the amplifier. The harder you push an amp, the more distortion and chance of clipping you have. Both of which cause heat and can blow your sub. Those Zv4 setups youve seen probably weren't being run at full tilt for a half commute everyday. They probably had is running hard and then really cranked it for demos or bursts. But, j could be wrong.

Another good option would be the Skar SK4500. Its supposedly very similar to the Sundown Amps but a not cheaper. You'd have to double check that. Crescendo and Digital Designs also make quality amps.

Here's a listing of amps and their tested power (sorry if this isn't allowed mods)

Amp-Dyno-Results

As far as your electrical goes, your going to be in the area of 350 to 400 amps of draw depending on volatge sag for 5000w. You'll need an alt that can handle that of you want to run that all the time. Otherwise, you'll need a substantial battery bank to handle the bursts when you want it.

You'll want:

A High Output Alternator (350+ amps)

The Big 3 (upgrading chasis ground, alt power wire, and battery power wires)

0 Gauge Wire (maybe more than one run? Your getting out of what I've done and know with that one.)

And high cap battery under the hood and probably two by the amp.

I would double check electrical requirements, I've never done hands on stuff with a huge install.

The take aways are, I would get one high quality amp around 4500 to 5000 watts and have both subs on it. Use a DMM and set your gain to the 2000w per sub area. You can always push it harder, but bear in mind, you might blow your $700 subs eventually. Besides, in the right enclosure, 2000w will be more than enough to take full advantage of the 70mm excursion. Just make sure you give enough airspace and port area. And I'd tune a little low for a daily setup if I were you.

I plan to tune to 30hz, im looking at the zv4 rev2 btw 2k rms, zv4s are very underrated btw. Everyone says that, im not worried a whole bunch about blowing them, im obviously not gonna play them at 100% all the time either. Upgrading like this is more of a upgrade to go above what i can handle so I have the ability to turn it up louder than i ever would daily listening to my music. The electrical ud the first thing im going to setup so not worried about that. Thanks man

 

[mylows10 5,000+ posts]

I've got a system like what you want now. And so does the wife. I've been doing large system like this for years. Just did a 156 DB system for finals. Anyway your will determine what you can or can't do , also your level of install skills If you use. Let's say a 6k amp at 1 ohm. After rise you probably never see a full 6k especially on a daily set up If you have enough juice i.e. Batteries, alts ,and wire. , and can keep the box rise to a minimum you will see 3000-5000 maybe. This is why the DB drag guys wire to lower impedances to keep to rise to a minimum The car I built for finals for instance started at .7 and rise to 1.2. Strapped and I clamped 13k from the amps there are tricks you will need to know to help with rise and resistance that some of us can teach you

 

[CplCuddles]

I've got a system like what you want now. And so does the wife. I've been doing large system like this for years. Just did a 156 DB system for finals. Anyway your will determine what you can or can't do , also your level of install skills If you use. Let's say a 6k amp at 1 ohm. After rise you probably never see a full 6k especially on a daily set up If you have enough juice i.e. Batteries, alts ,and wire. , and can keep the box rise to a minimum you will see 3000-5000 maybe. This is why the DB drag guys wire to lower impedances to keep to rise to a minimum The car I built for finals for instance started at .7 and rise to 1.2. Strapped and I clamped 13k from the amps there are tricks you will need to know to help with rise and resistance that some of us can teach you

Honestly, I could install my stuff, but I'm in no way a pro. I had a local shop do some of my stuff on my last system. I would love to find someone around my area who was good with this so I could learn myself. Especially with this setup, is not something i want to f up. Thanks for the input, man. It's very much appreciated.