psychological?

[leonsv 10+ year member]

ok so lately i've been trying to find out exactly why people say "highend" amps sound soooo much better than more affortable amps. So far i've isolated the contributing factors to: internal component quality, bulit in sound manipulation, power output purity/consistancy (including damping factor, THD, sensativity, etc), and finally psychological factors. so now i'm wondering, when does the margin of increased performance become neglegible? $1000? $2000?

i guess what i'm trying to ask is what differentiates a great amp from a phenomenal amp (similar spec)? and when the psychological aspect becomes the greatest variable.

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[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Many of the differences are totally irrelevant. High end amps tend to clip more elegantly which doen't matter if you don't ever drive you amp into clipping. My opinion is that if you can hear the difference in two amps putting out the same amount of unclipped power, then one of them is broken.

Typically where your extra money goes on a "high-end" amp is better quality of components, a more robust design, overkill on the power supply and output devices, consistency of product (tigher tolerence build components result in a tighter tolerance of power outputs between samples) and longevity.

As far as where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, that's an individual decision. You really don't need to spend more than $0.50 a watt to get a pretty good amp these days for a Class A/B and $0.25 a watt for Class D.

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

$1,500

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

ok so lately i've been trying to find out exactly why people say "highend" amps sound soooo much better than more affortable amps.

It has been reasonably well demonstrated that the only sources of an amplifier's "sonic characteristic" are gain, power, noise, distortion and frequency response.

You must have an audible difference in one of these categories for an amplifier to "sound" different.

internal component quality,

While great for things like longivity, the only way this will alter sound is if it causes an audible change in one of the above listed categories.

bulit in sound manipulation,

This would fall under processing moreso than true "sonic differences" between amplifiers.

Take the Zapco DC or Kicker SX series, for example. They have a ton of built-in processing features that really allow you to alter the sound of your system (advanced xovers, equalization, etc). But you can do exactly the same with external processors, so the differences don't really lie "within" the amplification process itself.

Unless I'm defining "sound manipulation" differently than you are.

power output purity/consistancy (including damping factor, THD, sensativity, etc),

See above.

and finally psychological factors.

Probably the primary factor in most cases.

Commonly referred to as "physcoacoustics".

Sort of like the "audiophiles" who claim marking your CD's with a green marker will make them sound better.

so now i'm wondering, when does the margin of increased performance become neglegible? $1000? $2000?

Once you find an amplifier that outputs the power you need into the impedance you have with the features you want, asthetics you enjoy, the prestige you desire, and the quality of construction, warranty and customer service you demand.

Where that falls within a price range is completely dependent upon the individual.

i guess what i'm trying to ask is what differentiates a great amp from a phenomenal amp (similar spec)?

Too subjective to give a finite answer.

In many cases it has to do with the ability of the product to last over time. McIntosh, for example, has very high values because they use great internal components, don't fail often and will last for literally decades without needing repair.

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Commonly referred to as "physcoacoustics".

Is that sound you can touch?
"phys" existing in the material world

"psych" existing in the mind.

Just made for a funny typo

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Is that sound you can touch?
"phys" existing in the material world

"psych" existing in the mind.

Just made for a funny typo

Nice catch //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

You know what I meant though //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

Fingers just put the letters in the wrong places

 

[thylantyr 10+ year member]

High end amps tend to clip more elegantly which doen't matter if you don't ever drive you amp into clipping.

I hear this alot on forums, even home audio.

Elegant clipping.

I think this is a myth. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Feel free to discuss.

Hints:

1. I run my proamps clipping all the time with no audible gremlins

2. People without clip indicators driving their amps hard will clip, not

hear anything bad and not realize they are clipping.

 

[bdawson72 5,000+ posts]

wow......the forum bigwigs came out for this one.....good read though

 

[JimJ 5,000+ posts]

High end amps tend to clip more elegantly which doen't matter if you don't ever drive you amp into clipping.
I hear this alot on forums, even home audio.

Elegant clipping.

I think this is a myth. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Feel free to discuss.

Hints:

1. I run my proamps clipping all the time with no audible gremlins

2. People without clip indicators driving their amps hard will clip, not

hear anything bad and not realize they are clipping.

I don't see how one transistor would clip more "elegantly" than another...but all you need to do is ask any guitar player the differences between "hollow state" and solid state under heavily clipped conditions //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

I wouldn't really call that a benefit, though...the whole point of efficient speakers is to reach reasonable in-room volumes without having to drive the amps to that point...

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Not so much the transistor itself but the overall circuit/feedback design makes for a less harsh result. Some amps make it really apparent that you are getting them close to clipping when the THD goes ballistic before the actual onset of clipping.

Arguing that people drive amps to clipping all the time without hearing it doesn't prove anything either. My wife, for example, wouldn't know the difference between a basic factory system and a really high end one. Tin ear FTW! Really easy to satisfy.

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

I've seen graphs that show you "hard" vs. "soft" clipping.... I would say there IS a difference.

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

Has the idea of using compressors or limiters in car audio been discussed? Or perhaps higher-end amps have built in compressors already?

From my basic understanding of the subject, a compressor keeps an amplifier (or other device) from creating a clipped signal by applying a slope to the gain (which is otherwise linear).

I would be interested in knowing what the general concensus is on this, and I really don't know jack about car amplifiers so forgive me if this is common knowledge.

 

[Buffalohed 10+ year member]

I've seen graphs that show you "hard" vs. "soft" clipping.... I would say there IS a difference.

Compression of the kind I was talking about in the last post is known as "soft clipping". "Hard clipping" is the kind that occurs naturally due to excessive gain. So yeah, you are right, there is a big difference.

But I guess the question is, do high-end amplifiers actually incorporate compression, hence giving them "soft clipping" characteristics, or is there something else at work here that actually changes the nature of real clipping?

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

Blaupunkt built a series of amps several years ago that had compression circuits in them to make for a soft clip. That said any kind of processing like that built into the amp would pretty much exclude it from true high fidelity use for the simple reason that it will kill the dynamics of the music.

The amps I would consider truly high end are nothing more than a quality preamp (with or without crossover, though I wouldn't use the x-over if it had it in favor of an outboard digital unit) and a solid gain block. Nothing more fancy than that. From there Class A/B circuitry (possibly Class A preamp), fairly large heatsink and overbuilt power supply. Looking at the guts and seeing a lot of blue resistors isn't a bad thing either.

 

[Beat_Dominator 5,000+ posts]

I'll try to get a picture or scan in the graphs I was talking about... they're in a book I have.