please help with new audio installation

[magnus28 10+ year member]

Hello all.. first time poster....

I have a 2007 Mazda GT Sport (hatchback)

I want to keep the factory deck and 6 factory speakers, the sound is

great, but lacks bass... I have a pair of Sony Xplod 6x9's at 350 watts a piece. I am going to buy an amp in the 500-1000 watt range,

and plan on buying a 10" Sub woofer around 1200 watts.

I went to 2 car audio places and the quoted me in the $700-850 range for a cheap sub, 4 channel amp, and the wiring and installation.

Looks like i'm going to buy the amp and sub myself, and I plan on mounting the amp to the back of the sub box, and the 2 6x9's on each side. I need advise on what I need to do to wire this all up,what I will need to buy, so my factory deck still will run the 6 factory speakers, and the amp I plan to buy will power the 6x9's and the sub.. thanks!!

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[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

you have a bad plan.

the 6x9's need their own boxes and cannot share the airspace with a sub. a true 1200W RMS sub will cost more than the quote you got. never look at MAX power ratings and only concern yourself with RMS power ratings.

a 4 channel amp is not going to work well since you have two 4 ohm subs. you want a single subwoofer amp - a monoblock Class D. start with that and your subs. if you want to add 6x9's then you'll need a separate amp for them. when you install the power wiring (4 awg will be plenty for your budget) get a kit that includes a distribution block.

note that you want to avoid mounting the amp to the sub box. it makes stealing your entire system very easy and makes removing your box to get to your spare very difficult. just mount the amp(s) to the rear of the back seat so wiring can be neat and tidy.

 

[Dirtrider4eva 10+ year member]

you have a bad plan.
the 6x9's need their own boxes and cannot share the airspace with a sub. a true 1200W RMS sub will cost more than the quote you got. never look at MAX power ratings and only concern yourself with RMS power ratings.

a 4 channel amp is not going to work well since you have two 4 ohm subs. you want a single subwoofer amp - a monoblock Class D. start with that and your subs. if you want to add 6x9's then you'll need a separate amp for them. when you install the power wiring (4 awg will be plenty for your budget) get a kit that includes a distribution block.

note that you want to avoid mounting the amp to the sub box. it makes stealing your entire system very easy and makes removing your box to get to your spare very difficult. just mount the amp(s) to the rear of the back seat so wiring can be neat and tidy.

FALSE, alot.

1. a sub that handles around 1200 watts can be had for around 200. sundown sa 12s can take that, aq hdcs, so many more.

2. the 6.9s you shouldnt worry about, since you have the 6 speaker factory setup, they wont add a huge input at all if their going in the rear hatch area.

3. a 4 channel can work. its just not the best line to take. i would try to find a 5 channel, that has class a/b power, and D power. then you can power both speakers and sub.

4. Subs take D power normally, but can take a/b, Speakers are only A/B because D = lower frequencies and higher distortion.

5. mount the amp on the back of the box can damage the amp from the high vibrations. you should mount it somewhere else in the car, or build a mounting rack.

if you absoultely have to, get rubber spaces for between the amp and box to reduce vibration.

6. most factory head units cannot run an amp for they lack RCA inputs. you need to look into the back of the headunit and see, if not, you will need an adapter, or another deck.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

the reason a 4 channel amp won't work is that the amp will likely be only 4 ohm stable in bridged mode. as such, it won't run the subs very well at all. if you found a 4 channel amp that was 2 ohm stable when bridged (some Boston Acoustics amps are like that) then you'd be better off, but you won't get a lot of power out of it.

Powerbass makes inexpensive but decent quality subs and amps that would fit your needs.

 

[magnus28 10+ year member]

Thx for the reply,

I didn't say I wanted 2 subs, I said I only wanted one.

and by 1200 watts I meant peak power, so maybe 4-500 rms.

The 2 sony 6x9's are in there own separate enclosures. What I meant was I would add brackets to each side of the sub enclosure, and mount the 6x9's.

I know I don't need 2 separate amps to power both 6x9's and the sub.

a 4 channel amp will power both nicely - provided I have the same resistance and enough rms power.

 

[Dirtrider4eva 10+ year member]

Thx for the reply,
I didn't say I wanted 2 subs, I said I only wanted one.

and by 1200 watts I meant peak power, so maybe 4-500 rms.

The 2 sony 6x9's are in there own separate enclosures. What I meant was I would add brackets to each side of the sub enclosure, and mount the 6x9's.

I know I don't need 2 separate amps to power both 6x9's and the sub.

a 4 channel amp will power both nicely - provided I have the same resistance and enough rms power.

your welcome.

in the 400-500 rms region, you can mount the amp to the box, technically. if the box is made decently, their wont be enough vibration to damage the amp.

thats a low enough power to not worry. the 6.9s you would be best mount them in place of the rear door speakers. mount them off the sub box just doesnt seem logical.

if you really want to, then you shouldnt be asking about what to do.

i myself have a beefy class A/B 2 channel i "could" sell you.

but any similar amp will work.

it would fit your area of use, well.

but i think something along the lines of an 800 watts by 2 or 4 channels would work.

you could run each speaker of a channel, and bridge 2 channels to run the sub, and tada, your done.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

If you know everything then why did you start this thread? If you did know what you where talking about then you would not refer to peak ratings and you would know 6x9s in the hatch would be pointless unless you wanted to play with the hatch open!

 

[Dirtrider4eva 10+ year member]

If you know everything then why did you start this thread? If you did know what you where talking about then you would not refer to peak ratings and you would know 6x9s in the hatch would be pointless unless you wanted to play with the hatch open!

see what i mean...stubborn noob

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

Dude, i'm not going to let that post go...

FALSE, alot.1. a sub that handles around 1200 watts can be had for around 200. sundown sa 12s can take that, aq hdcs, so many more.

2. the 6.9s you shouldnt worry about, since you have the 6 speaker factory setup, they wont add a huge input at all if their going in the rear hatch area.

3. a 4 channel can work. its just not the best line to take. i would try to find a 5 channel, that has class a/b power, and D power. then you can power both speakers and sub.

4. Subs take D power normally, but can take a/b, Speakers are only A/B because D = lower frequencies and higher distortion.

5. mount the amp on the back of the box can damage the amp from the high vibrations. you should mount it somewhere else in the car, or build a mounting rack.

if you absoultely have to, get rubber spaces for between the amp and box to reduce vibration.

6. most factory head units cannot run an amp for they lack RCA inputs. you need to look into the back of the headunit and see, if not, you will need an adapter, or another deck.

1. you referenced an sub rated for 600W RMS. giving it 1200W RMS will destroy the sub. your referencing people that aren't actually giving the sub as much power as they think they are. don't plan on giving a sub more than it's RMS rating on a regular basis. some extra dynamic power available is nice to prevent clipping, but speakers are blow from too much power, never from too little power.

2. the 6x9's will likely overpower the entire factory speaker system. it's a hatch, they are in the listening space about 6 feet from you and you have glass to reinforce the sound field. they will be very noticeable and everything will seem to come from behind you. that is what we try to avoid, which is why they are not recommended. plus, they are xplod speakers, so they don't sound good anyway.

3. a 5 channel amp will have low power on the sub channel (in his price range). you won't get near 1200W bridged in the price range, which is why you want a dedicated Class D sub amp. and for that much power, a 1 ohm load (dual 2 ohm sub) and 1 ohm stable monoblock will be the least expensive option.

4. subs don't care what the amplifier class is. we've been using Class A/B for over 40 years, to plenty of subs. Class D is a more recent addition to the amplifier line-up. the class simply relates to how the positive and negative rail transistors are switched. Class D is more efficient and higher distortion isn't audible in most sub setups.

5. the amplifier is not damaged from "high vibrations". the box shouldn't flex that much anyway. the vehicle encounters much worse vibrations on every drive you take from the road. we don't mount amps to boxes because of the reasons i mentioned (theft and spare tire access).

6. he simply needs a LOC on one pair of full range speakers. David Navone offers a model with an auto turn-on. the lack of a remote turn on is more of a concern. but modern amps have high level inputs and some even offer auto turn-on so no external LOC is needed. when integrating with factory, look for high level inputs to minimize the number of external pieces you need.

4.

 

[Dirtrider4eva 10+ year member]

Dude, i'm not going to let that post go...


1. you referenced an sub rated for 600W RMS. giving it 1200W RMS will destroy the sub. your referencing people that aren't actually giving the sub as much power as they think they are. don't plan on giving a sub more than it's RMS rating on a regular basis. some extra dynamic power available is nice to prevent clipping, but speakers are blow from too much power, never from too little power.

2. the 6x9's will likely overpower the entire factory speaker system. it's a hatch, they are in the listening space about 6 feet from you and you have glass to reinforce the sound field. they will be very noticeable and everything will seem to come from behind you. that is what we try to avoid, which is why they are not recommended. plus, they are xplod speakers, so they don't sound good anyway.

3. a 5 channel amp will have low power on the sub channel (in his price range). you won't get near 1200W bridged in the price range, which is why you want a dedicated Class D sub amp. and for that much power, a 1 ohm load (dual 2 ohm sub) and 1 ohm stable monoblock will be the least expensive option.

4. subs don't care what the amplifier class is. we've been using Class A/B for over 40 years, to plenty of subs. Class D is a more recent addition to the amplifier line-up. the class simply relates to how the positive and negative rail transistors are switched. Class D is more efficient and higher distortion isn't audible in most sub setups.

5. the amplifier is not damaged from "high vibrations". the box shouldn't flex that much anyway. the vehicle encounters much worse vibrations on every drive you take from the road. we don't mount amps to boxes because of the reasons i mentioned (theft and spare tire access).

6. he simply needs a LOC on one pair of full range speakers. David Navone offers a model with an auto turn-on. the lack of a remote turn on is more of a concern. but modern amps have high level inputs and some even offer auto turn-on so no external LOC is needed. when integrating with factory, look for high level inputs to minimize the number of external pieces you need.

are you kidding me? sa-12s can take 1200 no problem. and on TOP of that, HES ONLY RUNNING 400-500 rms, hmm so does the sa 12 fit well? sure does dude

he shouldnt even be using the 6x9s, but he wants too so badly. so he can since we all know nothing. (hence the noob pic)

you dumb? a 5 channel that can support 400-500 on the sub channel is an easy find. I own the hifonics 4x60 +1k and got that for a deal. way under 250.

and thats 1000 to the sub channel at 1.

if you paid attention, i said subs can take A/B, but now with more efficient D power, it'll be less strenuous on the electrical for i know he hasnt done the BIG 3.

and he probably has a 100 amp alt.

yes high Vibrations do affect the amp. search it.

now since he is running such lower power, i Clearly stated, he can probably mount it to the sub box, since it'll supply very little vibration.

 

[magnus28 10+ year member]

If you know everything then why did you start this thread? If you did know what you where talking about then you would not refer to peak ratings and you would know 6x9s in the hatch would be pointless unless you wanted to play with the hatch open!

Whoa there! I never claimed to know everything, don't know how you could have construed that!

Let me clarify a few things.

when I listed my speakers that I have, or what I plan to purchase, I listed them in peak power.

My goal is to have my 6 speaker factory audio run from my factory deck, and if possible maybe disable the subwoofer output (for lack of a better term)

I want to maximize the space in my hatch, hence why I elected to go with one 4 channel (or 5) amp that can power both my 6x9's and my sub.

I want an amp with a built in crossover and would like to set it up so the mid range goes to the sony's and the low to the sub. I guess the high end would have to come out in the sony's as well.. unless I could somehow make the factory just play high and mid.

I want to know more about what I will need to complete the setup, i.e what gauge wire to use, other aftermarket goodies like loc, sound processors, etc.

how to wire the amp, i.e 1 channel to each 6x9 and 2 chan to the sub.

and most of all how all of this will blend in with the factory system? Again, I don't want the factory speakers to pass base sounds cause they crack and sound like S#!T when the volume is turned up - even with the base set at 0.

Don't think this help isn't appreciated, and don't beat up on the noob please ;-)

Cheers!

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

you've never seen someone give that much power to that sub. you've only heard people say they've done it because they think the numbers on their amp are attainable. if the sub could handle a true RMS, the manufacturer would state that in their ratings. their ratings of wattage are based on the thermal handling of the voice coil assembly and the current rating of the voice coil. exceed either and the sub fails. the manufacturer knows more about their products than anyone else, and their ratings are determined through experimentation and engineering. can the sub handle a short musical peak of 1200W RMS? maybe, if mechanical limits are not exceeded. can it handle sustained 1200W RMS? no. even a short duration can melt the lamination on the voice coil winding causing instant failure.

you're hifonics is not going to make rated power except on a test bench with a high-current regulated supply - and for about a second. on an OEM alt, you won't get a good amp rated at 14.4V to make rated power - ever. as you increase power output you increase current draw which will cause voltage drop. 14.4V ratings are pointless, 12V ratings are what you should use since that is more likely the voltage you're amp gets at full tilt. besides, newer hifonics are overrated and don't sustain rated power. the old school amps were a different story. prove it to yourself with a DMM and test tones. you'll be surprised (and disappointed)

1kW+ power ratings at 14.4V are not attainable in 95% of vehicles. the investment in the electrical system to support that much current with ZERO voltage drop along the wire is unrealistic.

the box doesn't vibrate near as much as the entire vehicle. the box surface barely moves but mere millimeters. the entire car moves more than a foot with many more g's than the sub could. no amp has ever failed because of box vibrations. many fail because the box moves and stresses the wire connections (when not bolted down), very few are from a defect in the amp, and the others fail from operator error. avoid mounting amps to boxes. accessing the spare tire alone is the best reason. plus, it's nice being able to remove the sub(s) for hauling stuff around. you simply disconnect speaker wire and pull the box out. when the amp is connected it's a much more tedious process. i've seen a lot of amp failures from box mounting simply due to wire stress when the box moved. in 20 years i've seen lots of problems with amps mounted to boxes, but never because of "vibrations".

i'm an Electrical Engineer and Acoustics Engineer. i don't need to search on the interweb for something i can design.

your issue here (and in other posts) is that you are regurgitating information without actually understanding it. you get lucky once in a while with your advice, but it's hit and miss. until you actually understand what is happening, you'll continue to offer incorrect advice without knowing it. i'm glad you're trying to help, but take time to listen to your elders.

the OP will have to decide what he can afford, and that is the best he'll get.

OP: sorry this thread turned into back-and-forth banter. i prefer to stick to answers but i cannot let incorrect information float. hopefully you at least learned something in our rabble rabble rabble.

 

[keep_hope_alive Premium Member]

OP, thanks for the clarification. sorry for the BS.

Phoenix Gold R-Series amps have high-level inputs and auto turn-on.

some JL Audio and Kicker amps have the same features. getting an amp with those features will greatly simplify your installation. these amps will include the HPF/LPF options you seek.

your easiest setup is to use your 6x9's in separate boxes, a 4 channel amp mounted to the side of the hatch or rear seat. and a single 4 ohm SVC subwoofer in a simple box. figure around $200-300 for the amp and the same for the sub + box, then add wiring and you're at the price you were quoted but with better equipment.

plenty of brands to choose from, buy what you can afford and you'll be as good as you can. sonicelectronix, woofersetc, crutchfield all offer online pricing and some warranties (crutchfield is fully warrantied, the others are partially warrantied).

 

[CHEMMINS 10+ year member]

Please OP do not use the 6x9's......they will not blend worth a crap. To remove the bass from your factory speakers you could put some bass blockers in the lines before the speakers, cause you will need the bass for your high level inputs for the amp for the subs.

 

[magnus28 10+ year member]

it's ok keep ;-) i'm appreciative of your help, any anyone else's. I just don't understand why I was dragged into this, I never claimed to know what I was talking about.. I just knew it was possible to do it all with 1 amp instead of 2. Would it be better to use a seperate amp for each speaker? maybe I don't know - that's why i'm here!

Bottom line is I went to two different car audio shops today, and both said with an entry level sub and crappy, but decent amp + installation + wiring kit and loc type stuff it would run $700-$850

My budget for this set up is around $300.. So i'm going to have to pony up, buy a sub, amp, and wires and crap and figure out how to do this myself.

It's why i've posted here, and spent all day browsing the web learning about line output converters, bi-amplified setups, bridging, cross overs etc.

again, all advise is welcome, either right or wrong, i'm sure the gurus on here will determine what is bad advise, and what's not.

i'm a man on a budget, and trying to get just a little thump out of my system, heck a 500w sub will do if it will keep me on budget.

cheers!