Looking for good midbass speakers & crossover to pair with my Tymphany tweeters

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Would the Alpine MRV-F300 be okay to use with the Daytons? Looks like they are basically the same cutout size and depth as the Flutes.

It depends on you, really. Your listening style and what you expect/demand from a driver. If you don't need everything to get screaming loud and you want to cross them over at a low frequency, I would say yes. It will sound full and enjoyable.
In free-air (most door speaker scenarios), many drivers can be fully stroked with as little as 25-30w, so from that perspective the Alpine should be a good start. BUT, you won't have the control and headroom like you would from a proper 60-100w and it may be a bit soft and mushy sounding right when things start to get fun. The Dayton is a driver that can be stroked to full excursion in free-air with maybe 40w and sound fantastic, but it will also readily gobble up huge amounts of power and provide you with a very tight attack and incredible dynamics in an esoteric install. The stuff you can feel on your chest. Install dependent, of course.

It was a driver that I initially dismissed as being pretty and being yet another Dayton, but I played with a set and I was blown away. Most Dayton drivers are really very good so I'm not sure why I took that stance. They are incredible, full copper sleeve with a 3" edgewound coil and a very stiff cone. Very well composed driver even when you're piss-pounding them with lots of power. But they're not stiff suspension drivers, they're very musical. The control comes from the motor. We're talking top tier Morel level performance for a fraction of the price. That's something you can grow into over time by grabbing them now and upgrading your power later. And, they're beautiful!

 

[YukonXL04]

I'm running my viva ring rad tweets with my silver flute 8s passive right now on about 250 rms each side. I believe its crossed at 3k . Sound really good! But midbass is very install dependent. So you need to make sure you take your time on that.

 

[osl 10+ year member]

I'm a little worried those would be too deep. I think the Silver Flutes are 2.95" deep and those look to be about 3.26". I'm not even sure the Silver Flutes will fit honestly. All I know for sure is 2.75" ones fit with a little room to spare according to someone on the Volt forums.

Do you have enough room between the door and the door panel to add something like an MDF adapter to give you more clearance in the rear?

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

You probably won’t listen but somebody else reading this might.

Those home audio speakers are great in home audio for cheap. But they are not designed for free air which we are not using free air anyway. If you are you screwed up.

We are using infinite baffle. Which they are not designed for. They are designed to be used sealed. Also they are not coated for elements.

You can spray the cones.

 

[Water Bear]

Dayton!

Just want to see if I have this straight: Are you recommending the Dayton 7's for use in doors? Because I am also on the hunt for some mid-bass speakers to go in my front doors...

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

Just want to see if I have this straight: Are you recommending the Dayton 7's for use in doors? Because I am also on the hunt for some mid-bass speakers to go in my front doors...

Sure, I wouldn't hesitate to use them in my doors. But I've also used numerous 8 ohm home audio drivers in my frontstage for the last 15+ years so it's not really a stretch of the imagination for me. I should also clarify that I'm advocating the driver more than I am the the door for the really obvious reason stated above, they would need to be protected from the elements (duh?). I also feel I would be overstating the obvious to say an enclosure would be more ideal but the Dayton has a Vas of ~.75cu.ft so you're talking a potentially good sized enclosure depending on what you want to achieve. Like the volume of a door? Basically, a leaky sealed enclosure. Which is what 98% of people are riding around listening to every single day.

The Dayton will do just fine in a door, it's simply a matter of finalizing the Qtc with a carefully thought out crossover and EQ combination to achieve something closer to .577 to .707 rather than the raw .4 Qts the driver inherently has. If you equalize 2 speakers of different Q to the same frequency response, they will have the same excursion, and behave roughly the same as far as the system is concerned. High Q woofers simply require less equalization to gain a flat response in an infinite baffle system. The main difference is the woofer with more equalization will require more power. But the driver already plays flat to 50Hz in an IEC baffle, and will play even lower in the 1/2 and 1/4 space scenarios you will find down in the front corner of your vehicle, so you may not have to do anything different at all if you plan to cross higher than that.

Q - the magnification of resonance factor of any resonant device or circuit. A driver with a high Q is more resonant than one with a low Q.

 

Qes - the electrical Q of the driver.

 

Qms - the mechanical Q of the driver.

 

Qts - the total Q of the driver at Fs. Qts = Qes x Qms/Qes + Qms.

 

Qtc - value for the damping provided for a driver in a sealed enclosure. Denotes the enclosures ability to control the driver response at resonance. Qtc = 0.707 is the optimum value for sealed enclosures, providing flattest response and highest SPL for deep bass extension. Enclosures for this value are often rather large. Lower Qtc can give even better transient response, down to a Qtc of 0.577 for the best damping and transients.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Sure, I wouldn't hesitate to use them in my doors. But I've also used numerous 8 ohm home audio drivers in my frontstage for the last 15+ years so it's not really a stretch of the imagination for me. I should also clarify that I'm advocating the driver more than I am the the door for the really obvious reason stated above, they would need to be protected from the elements (duh?). I also feel I would be overstating the obvious to say an enclosure would be more ideal but the Dayton has a Vas of ~.75cu.ft so you're talking a potentially good sized enclosure depending on what you want to achieve. Like the volume of a door? Basically, a leaky sealed enclosure. Which is what 98% of people are riding around listening to every single day.
The Dayton will do just fine in a door, it's simply a matter of finalizing the Qtc with a carefully thought out crossover and EQ combination to achieve something closer to .577 to .707 rather than the raw .4 Qts the driver inherently has. If you equalize 2 speakers of different Q to the same frequency response, they will have the same excursion, and behave roughly the same as far as the system is concerned. High Q woofers simply require less equalization to gain a flat response in an infinite baffle system. The main difference is the woofer with more equalization will require more power. But the driver already plays flat to 50Hz in an IEC baffle, and will play even lower in the 1/2 and 1/4 space scenarios you will find down in the front corner of your vehicle, so you may not have to do anything different at all if you plan to cross higher than that.

Q - the magnification of resonance factor of any resonant device or circuit. A driver with a high Q is more resonant than one with a low Q.

 

Qes - the electrical Q of the driver.

 

Qms - the mechanical Q of the driver.

 

Qts - the total Q of the driver at Fs. Qts = Qes x Qms/Qes + Qms.

 

Qtc - value for the damping provided for a driver in a sealed enclosure. Denotes the enclosures ability to control the driver response at resonance. Qtc = 0.707 is the optimum value for sealed enclosures, providing flattest response and highest SPL for deep bass extension. Enclosures for this value are often rather large. Lower Qtc can give even better transient response, down to a Qtc of 0.577 for the best damping and transients.

I know you know the difference between IB and free air.

Btw. You don’t EQ the driver to fix the driver. You EQ the driver to fix the envirement. Each one is different.

Get yourself one of those $150 Dayton DSPs and a RTA. Your entire life will change. Then you may be on my page.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

I know you know the difference between IB and free air. Btw. You don’t EQ the driver to fix the driver. You EQ the driver to fix the envirement. Each one is different.

Get yourself one of those $150 Dayton DSPs and a RTA. Your entire life will change. Then you may be on my page.

Of course I know the difference between free-air and IB. Do you see many folks hanging drivers from strings inside the vehicle? C'mon, stop with the obvious stuff and give people a little credit. You're not the only person to discover the importance of installation and the convenience of DSP. But you are one of those guys who thinks DSP is a free meal ticket, a magic bullet that fixes everything without causing any issues similar to the physics involved with passive elements. Bro, I'm miles ahead of you. I've long stopped doing all the things your are just now stumbling upon and touting as your own discoveries. I owned RTAs when they were the big bulky things that you carried around in a bag. I achieved the +/- 1dB flat line in '95 and said, "what's next?". That was easy and boring and no one listens to that curve, we all prefer something similar to the Fletcher-Munson for actual listening. I'm well past all of that easy shit, I'm into much deeper rabbit holes now like making my own drivers and you couldn't begin to keep up because your ego limits you to where you are now. I'm the guy who doesn't compete because he doesn't need the validation from others. It's hilarious to me that you can't see how ignorant you are.
Here's a free tip for you, know-it-all. It is imperative that you EQ every single driver, in the completed install, before you apply crossovers and level adjustment (unless by some Christmas fucking miracle it measures perfectly flat right where you installed it, and I've never in my life seen that happen). If you don't, it will be pure luck (or very clever planning) that you are able to achieve your target slope. Get every driver to play flat to 2-3 octaves outside your planned cross point, do this and when you actually apply your filters (any slope you wish!, or that the driver will tolerate) you will achieve a better phase coherency between your drivers than ever before. But wait! That requires more than one stage of EQ, you're confused! I know your limited little mind is rejecting that approach, but that's you. Your way is the only way, right? And here's a fucking link to help open your eyes to the fact that you can absolutely EQ a driver to achieve a target Q and that low Q drivers are a desired choice for good damping and overall flexibility. Go fucking read something, actually read it, and stop addressing me with your watered down, regurgitated t-shirt wisdom. I don't need tips from you.

Gradient woofeer equalization

Read the fourth post in this thread. --> Lower Qtc for closed enclosure subwoofer - List Thread

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

Of course I know the difference between free-air and IB. Do you see many folks hanging drivers from strings inside the vehicle? C'mon, stop with the obvious stuff and give people a little credit. You're not the only person to discover the importance of installation and the convenience of DSP. But you are one of those guys who thinks DSP is a free meal ticket, a magic bullet that fixes everything without causing any issues similar to the physics involved with passive elements. Bro, I'm miles ahead of you. I've long stopped doing all the things your are just now stumbling upon and touting as your own discoveries. I owned RTAs when they were the big bulky things that you carried around in a bag. I achieved the +/- 1dB flat line in '95 and said, "what's next?". That was easy and boring and no one listens to that curve, we all prefer something similar to the Fletcher-Munson for actual listening. I'm well past all of that easy shit, I'm into much deeper rabbit holes now like making my own drivers and you couldn't begin to keep up because your ego limits you to where you are now. I'm the guy who doesn't compete because he doesn't need the validation from others. It's hilarious to me that you can't see how ignorant you are.
Here's a free tip for you, know-it-all. It is imperative that you EQ every single driver, in the completed install, before you apply crossovers and level adjustment (unless by some Christmas fucking miracle it measures perfectly flat right where you installed it, and I've never in my life seen that happen). If you don't, it will be pure luck (or very clever planning) that you are able to achieve your target slope. Get every driver to play flat to 2-3 octaves outside your planned cross point, do this and when you actually apply your filters (any slope you wish!, or that the driver will tolerate) you will achieve a better phase coherency between your drivers than ever before. But wait! That requires more than one stage of EQ, you're confused! I know your limited little mind is rejecting that approach, but that's you. Your way is the only way, right? And here's a fucking link to help open your eyes to the fact that you can absolutely EQ a driver to achieve a target Q and that low Q drivers are a desired choice for good damping and overall flexibility. Go fucking read something, actually read it, and stop addressing me with your watered down, regurgitated t-shirt wisdom. I don't need tips from you.

Gradient woofeer equalization

Read the fourth post in this thread. --> Lower Qtc for closed enclosure subwoofer - List Thread

If any backwave gets outside of the door it’s no longer IB.

I wasn’t trying to be whatever you seem to think I am being.

But you really are a bitchy little prick aren’t you?

I was just having a conversation.

You are not miles ahead of anything but your own pile of ****.

You couldn’t tune yourself out of a paper bag.

As much as you know you would think you wouldn’t say dumb ****.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

If any backwave gets outside of the door it’s no longer IB. I wasn’t trying to be whatever you seem to think I am being.

But you really are a bitchy little prick aren’t you?

I was just having a conversation.

You are not miles ahead of anything but your own pile of ****.

You couldn’t tune yourself out of a paper bag.

You mean if any back wave gets outside the door and meets up with the front wave. Again with the obvious. That first back wave leak only determines the point at which the low frequency content begins to experience minor phase and rolloff issues, but they are not absolute and pretty minimal in the scope of things relative to how you plan to crossover to the subwoofer. But more importantly, do you think the driver would have any better mechanical power handling abilities in a door than it would free-air or a true infinite baffle? It would be identical. That's why I referred to it as a leaky sealed enclosure and why I brought up the whole Qts/Qtc topic. Because that will determine your overall success with a low Q driver on a door. Now go read about Ql.
You commented too soon so I know you didn't read the last items I provided to you but that is typical know-it-all behavior. I could take you to school every day but I don't even want you to benefit from it. I just hope other people can sniff out your ******** every time you post something obvious in an effort to look smart. This guy asked for drivers suggestions, that's what I gave him. You came in, assumed he didn't know that the install was important and stated the same old thing about how important the install is. Fucking duh. You might attempt to gain some perspective and consider how you come off in these threads when you assume people have no skill and you have all the answers. Or make stupid absolute statement like "you don't EQ the driver, you EQ the environment". Then you might understand why folks react to you the way they do. Maybe you can start a thread on how to adjust the constant Q filter on my carpet, plastic and glass. Or the quarter space gain down in my kicks. Is there a hidden knob or slider that adjusts those coefficients on those physical items? Because for now, I only know how to EQ the driver. You fucking clown, lmao.

 

[LosIsATool 5,000+ posts]

You mean if any back wave gets outside the door and meets up with the front wave. Again with the obvious. That first back wave leak only determines the point at which the low frequency content begins to experience minor phase and rolloff issues, but they are not absolute and pretty minimal in the scope of things relative to how you plan to crossover to the subwoofer. But more importantly, do you think the driver would have any better mechanical power handling abilities in a door than it would a true infinite baffle? It would be identical. That's why I referred to it as a leaky sealed enclosure and why I brought up the whole Qts/Qtc topic. Because that will determine your overall success with a low Q driver on a door. Now go read about Ql.
You commented too soon so I know you didn't read the last items I provided to you but that is typical know-it-all behavior. I could take you to school every day but I don't even want you to benefit from it. I just hope other people can sniff out your ******** every time you post something obvious in an effort to look smart. This guy asked for drivers suggestions, that's what I gave him. You came in, assumed he didn't know that the install was important and stated the same old thing about how important the install is. Fucking duh. You might attempt to gain some perspective and consider how you come off in these threads when you assume people have no skill and you have all the answers. Or make stupid absolute statement like "you don't EQ the driver, you EQ the environment". Then you might understand why folks react to you the way they do. Maybe you can start a thread on how to adjust the constant Q filter on my carpet, plastic and glass. Or the quarter space gain down in my kicks. Is there a hidden knob or slider that adjusts those coefficients on those physical items? Because for now, I only know how to EQ the driver. You fucking clown, lmao.

You are your brother papermaker are just alike. Neither have accomplished anything. Both rely to much on equipment.

Both of you are trapped in the past. Both of you have been left behind.

 

[ciaonzo 5,000+ posts]

You are your brother papermaker are just alike. Neither have accomplished anything. Both rely to much on equipment. Both of you are trapped in the past. Both of you have been left behind.

This is the other part I like about your posts, you contradict yourself a lot. First you tell me to go out and buy a DSP and RTA because it will change my life. Then you tell me that I rely too much on equipment, lol. Keep posting, I love to laugh.

 

[killeraxemannic 10+ year member]

I don't want to get into the middle of the discussion that yall are having but I just wanted to say that yes I am fully aware that I need to install the drivers properly and sound deaden the doors. I have some sound deadener ordered already for the install. I was more asking the question of what speakers & crossover setup pair well with my current tweeters. I have quite a bit of home audio experience just not really much in the way of car audio and nothing to the caliber or quality that I am trying to achieve here.

Anyways besides that I sort of had a deus ex machina happen with this whole project... I just found out that I had a ton of points on my work rewards website for a project I did so I ended up with $500 to spend at Crutchfield. Now I am thinking that I am going to get my amp from there and get a decent set of components and then spend the rest of the money I had saved up for the project on a Mini DSP. The Twk 88 looks nice but I really don't want to spend that much additional money when I don't have to. As far as the sub goes I found a guy that builds custom speaker boxes that fit in the factory location that are sized correctly in cu ft for a Rockford Fosgate P3SD-2. I want to stay in the factory sub location because it's hidden under the floor in the back and I am always carrying cargo in the back of my car with the seats folded down so I don't want a sub back there. I think an 8 in will be just fine as I'm not into crazy amounts of bass. Most likely going to get a second mini 4 channel amp of some sort to run the rear speakers and the subwoofer and use the Alpine MVR-F300 for my front midbass and tweeters.

 

[Water Bear]

I don't want to get into the middle of the discussion that yall are having but I just wanted to say that yes I am fully aware that I need to install the drivers properly and sound deaden the doors. I have some sound deadener ordered already for the install. I was more asking the question of what speakers & crossover setup pair well with my current tweeters. I have quite a bit of home audio experience just not really much in the way of car audio and nothing to the caliber or quality that I am trying to achieve here.
Anyways besides that I sort of had a deus ex machina happen with this whole project... I just found out that I had a ton of points on my work rewards website for a project I did so I ended up with $500 to spend at Crutchfield. Now I am thinking that I am going to get my amp from there and get a decent set of components and then spend the rest of the money I had saved up for the project on a Mini DSP. The Twk 88 looks nice but I really don't want to spend that much additional money when I don't have to. As far as the sub goes I found a guy that builds custom speaker boxes that fit in the factory location that are sized correctly in cu ft for a Rockford Fosgate P3SD-2. I want to stay in the factory sub location because it's hidden under the floor in the back and I am always carrying cargo in the back of my car with the seats folded down so I don't want a sub back there. I think an 8 in will be just fine as I'm not into crazy amounts of bass. Most likely going to get a second mini 4 channel amp of some sort to run the rear speakers and the subwoofer and use the Alpine MVR-F300 for my front midbass and tweeters.

I don't know how similar your needs are to mine, but I discovered these little gems recently:

Dynaudio Esotec midbass speakers.

They have a phenomenal frequency response, and the company that makes them is known for top-level SQ gear.

 

[Jcsaudio]

Anyways besides that I sort of had a deus ex machina happen with this whole project... I just found out that I had a ton of points on my work rewards website for a project I did so I ended up with $500 to spend at Crutchfield. Now I am thinking that I am going to get my amp from there and get a decent set of components and then spend the rest of the money I had saved up for the project on a Mini DSP. The Twk 88 looks nice but I really don't want to spend that much additional money when I don't have to. As far as the sub goes I found a guy that builds custom speaker boxes that fit in the factory location that are sized correctly in cu ft for a Rockford Fosgate P3SD-2. I want to stay in the factory sub location because it's hidden under the floor in the back and I am always carrying cargo in the back of my car with the seats folded down so I don't want a sub back there. I think an 8 in will be just fine as I'm not into crazy amounts of bass. Most likely going to get a second mini 4 channel amp of some sort to run the rear speakers and the subwoofer and use the Alpine MVR-F300 for my front midbass and tweeters.

If you’re shopping Crutchfield than check out the Morel offerings, AudioFrog midbass drivers, and the new Pioneer Z series looks interesting.