Kicker Warhorse

[murilo 10+ year member]

Actually there were only 2 that went back to Kicker due to so called noise issues, the idiot dealers had the gains SET WIDE OPEN. They have tested it at 12,500 USEABLE and SUSTAINABLE watts. The amp is a near equivalent of hooking up a speaker to a 440 volt industrial outlet.

On what impedance?

Because that is almost 50kW in 4 ohms.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

I think they were trying to one-up RF as they came out with the t15k or whatever the hell it is huge amp.

This may have had something to do with that too. I am very interested in this design, would like to try it in a really small amp (physically small) and see how well it really does. Would possibly drop the cost of amplifiers with big watts down alot if it works good. I don't like DSP or anything digital, but if it has to have that to operate it in this manner then I guess so be it... Anybody have any inside technical info on this design? You could PM me to keep it private.

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

This may have had something to do with that too. I am very interested in this design, would like to try it in a really small amp (physically small) and see how well it really does. Would possibly drop the cost of amplifiers with big watts down alot if it works good. I don't like DSP or anything digital, but if it has to have that to operate it in this manner then I guess so be it... Anybody have any inside technical info on this design? You could PM me to keep it private.

Ummm, wouldn't you have to have the DSP? That is precisely what allows the amplifier to work, doesn't it control it?

nG

 

[kingkongjr 10+ year member]

that it?

 

[ironchef b 10+ year member]

^^^he beat me to it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[MakeshiftAudio 10+ year member]

I could take a guess, since it seems to follow exactly what they're saying. With all the "only one switching stage" etc.

Impedance matching output transformers, and directly using the power supply switching bridge to switch a PWM'd audio signal(Think operation of the output bridge, but switching the 12V instead of the HV made from the SMPS), directly into the step up transformers(their planar transformers, they're pretty beefy, and easily able to take 2.5kW each), also functioning as impedance matching.

There are 4 of these bridges, 2 sets of 2, with one set per channel. The warhorse is really a 2 channel amplifier.

There is essentially no dedicated SMPS.

I think they added the DSP for shits and marketing, since I've done this same exact thing(Things mentioned above, operation of this amp) with a basic comparator with an analog signal to make it into a PWM'd signal. Isn't exactly a high tech signal processing thing.

At least that's what I think how the amp works.

 

[Shinju 10+ year member]

Kong beat me but this is a larger photo.

Pretty impressive to be honest.

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

Yeah, really it is impressive. The concept of this design could seriously change things down the road if it works well and can be affordably built, kinda like Class D's when they first got started.

MakeshiftAudio would be the guy to know how this thing works, he is the mosfet man, he understands WAY too much about mosfets.... Must have started obsessing with them as a little boy.....

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

OH AND BTW: in car audio world, especially in amplifiers, a comparator circuit like you were talking about qualifies as technical enough to be called "digital" or "DSP" by amp manufacturers.... they sling those buzzwords around without any problems, even if they are only half-truths and hype, some of them realize what they are saying, others don't and just say what they are told to say....

 

[GLN305 10+ year member]

http://www.caraudiomag.com/reviews/caep_0809_kicker_warhorse_wx10000_1_amplifier_review/index.html

 

[MakeshiftAudio 10+ year member]

OH AND BTW: in car audio world, especially in amplifiers, a comparator circuit like you were talking about qualifies as technical enough to be called "digital" or "DSP" by amp manufacturers.... they sling those buzzwords around without any problems, even if they are only half-truths and hype, some of them realize what they are saying, others don't and just say what they are told to say....

Yeah, though they may have some pre pre-amp signal processing or some fancy jazz like that. Probably an IC that has bass boost capabilities, and an EQ of the some sort that goes straight to a PWM'd signal.

Yeah, really it is impressive. The concept of this design could seriously change things down the road if it works well and can be affordably built, kinda like Class D's when they first got started.
MakeshiftAudio would be the guy to know how this thing works, he is the mosfet man, he understands WAY too much about mosfets.... Must have started obsessing with them as a little boy.....

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif Made my day. I was very young (12 or so) when I started with solid state operation indeed. Thanks for the props.

Edit: Yep, that amp works like I said it did.

Edit2: In regards to the DSP:

The DSP is in complete control of the transformers, running a constant pulse of 24kHz. That doesn't mean the transformers are creating a large 24kHz output signal, but that's the clock speed for the pulse-width modulation. When a signal comes into the DSP, it sends off/on pulses to the transformer switchers of the appropriate duration to create both the frequency and the amplitude of the output. In a pulse width modulation format the length of the pulse will correspond to the output voltage level, and in this amp the length of the pulses will be limited to 1/24,000 of a second. A maximum pulse (100 percent) will result in maximum power output, while a half-length pulse (50 percent) results in half power.

So you now have output signal to feed your speakers, and it should resemble the analog input signal that came into the DSP to start with. The DSP takes feedback from the speaker outputs and makes real-time adjustments to the pulses to create a more accurate reproduction of the original signal, only lots bigger.

It's basic feedback based error corrected PWM operation.

Edit3: Should I design a smaller prototype amp? I have the parts to do so. I may try IGBTs as well, despite the voltage drop. The design I have in my head could also allow for higher voltages. Think 24V to 35V all depending on the transformer setup.

Edit3.5: I've seen some amplifiers brands pop up from this forum, mind talking to me about the process as for manufacturing etc?

 

[dB-r 10+ year member]

Yeah, PM me.

 

[Earthman 10+ year member]

on a smaller scale, i think the push-pull design would be too confusing to most users. atleast when you reach this stage of power, most have had experience so as not to be a complete idiot in what they're dealing with

thats my .02 anyway

 

[tinmanchris217 10+ year member]

I've read MakeShift's posts 10 times, while looking at the picture... All I can say is wow, to be able to decypher the amp just from guts and basic specs/info... MakeShift, you understand amp building better than most of us ever will.

I still don't really get it, but here's a dumbed down version, as I understand it. Please correct anything you see wrong, so I can learn things properly.

- The Warhorse works similar to a normal Class D, in that it takes the analog signal (after processing) and changes it into a PWM "digital" signal.

- Instead of switching the power supply-fed high voltage rails (30-150V DC), it switches the 12V low rail, directly. This happens under the 4 Kicker stickers.

- The +-12V PWM signal is run through a transformer that amplifies the +-12V to +- 70V DC(high volt), which emulates a similar analog AC signal.

So this would require high-current/low voltage switching components, since the output is transformed. Not sure if these are more/less expensive, but I imagine they could be more reliable and efficient.

Question: I see a big wire running across the toroids at the bottom. Is the +-12V signal run through the transformer twice, to step up the signal incrementally, or do they just have an odd way of reconnecting with the board?

 

[skylineTT 10+ year member]

i read that it did near 20K on 16v? idk, but i do remember it doing wayy over the rated 10K