Jug vs eD A vs RE XXX

NO! Ive got it, and I did the math on this one! I am right, not to say that your not knowledgable cause Im sure you are....but follow me on this casue Ive got a real easy way to understand this. Ok lets say that the whole cone on both subs moved the same distance (even though obviously the innner part moves more than the outside...but bear with me). Now the flat cone will displace any of the air that was currently occupying the space it moved into, and so would the bowl shaped cone. Therefore all of the air occupying the space where the cone jus moved into is porjected forward...which is how the sound is produced. Now if a bowl shaped cone is moved foward, it will displace all of the air occupied by the space it enters, which would be more becasue it has a larger surface area to it. The flat sub will also move all of the air that its cone moves into....which will displace less air than the conical cone because it has less surface area. And that is why a conical cone displaces more air then a flat cone when it moves...going by laws of physics that has to be true, I had a talk with my pshyics prof. about this yesterday
Doug...

I'm not going through this with you again... I'm sick of it.

Attend an AES convention, talk to the people that BUILD speakers every bloody day, and know more about how they function than your physics professor, you, or I could ever dream of.

I'm going to make this real simple on you... If your physics logic was correct? You'd create a VACUUM on the cone every time you moved forward. How else would you manage to displace more surface area than what your limiting radius allows..........................................................................

Radiating area, period.

 
its always great when someone thinks theyre right...and then the SUPER smart person is like "ha!you are not!"and gives this amazingly smart reason why....i need to be that smart so i can go "ha!you are not!"....d2 btw ...rangerman hit 145 w/ 1 i believe.....

Right....

You dumbass, I was saying that Jlaine was right, not me. So really you are the one that thinks they are "smrt" and doesn't know jack.

 
I'm a physics major as well, and had thought about this before

BumpinDoug you are incorrect.

the actual surface area of the cone does not matter

the projected (or radiating surface area) is what matters

Proof once and for all:

(for sake of simplicity, this is in 2-d, but can be generalized to 3-d)

assume a flat cone, 10" in diameter, that is to move 1/2" in excursion

now, take a horizontal line on the x-y axis to represent the profile of the cone

so y1(x)=0 from x=0 to x=10

at 1/2" excursion, the can be defined as another piece-wise function, y2(x)=1/2 from x=0 to x=10

now we find the area that it has displaced by moving from y=0 to y=1/2":

integral(y2-y1,x,0,10)=integral(1/2-0,x,0,10)= (1/2)(10)-(1/2)(0)= 5 in^2

now lets use a conical profile:

the piecewise function shall be outrageously deep (5") for the sake of emphasis,

y1(x)= -x+5 from x=0 to x=5, and x-5 from x=5 to x=10

so y2(x)= -x+5+1/2, x-5+1/2

we find the area this conical profile displaces from y=0 to y=1/2"

1st-integral[(-x+5+1/2)-(-x+5),x,0,5]

the function to be integrated simplifies to simply '1/2' after you subtract in the expression

therefore 1st-integral now becomes int(1/2,x,0,5)

2nd-integral[(x-5+1/2)-(x-5),x,5,10]

the function to be integrated also simplifies to 1/2 after you subtract in the expression

so the 2nd-integral now becomes int(1/2,x,5,10)

so anyone who knows their math and physics, as bumpindoug claims, can see that we can combine these integrals into one of the form:

int(1/2,x,0,10).........(the same function integrated from 0 to 5, then from 5 to 10, is the same as 0 to 10) = 5 in^2

which is exactly what we integrated with a flat cone......so it doesn't matter if an outrageously deep sub has more surface area, because the expressions that account for the slope, or profile, always cancel out in the integral, and the only thing left is the distance the cone moves

that is why manufacturers (knowledgeable ones anyways) never define the parameter "Sd" as 'surface area' in their parameter sheets....they always define it as "Sd (radiating area)= xxx.xx in^2 or xxx.xxx cm^2"

if anyone actually thinks they have a valid rebuttle for my argument for doing it in R^2 instead of R^3, or some similar non-sense, think about this.....when you subtract the original function from the one shifted up in the volume integral, what do you end up with? the functional expressions cancel out and all you're left with is the distance shifted upwards (or downwards), in this case which is 1/2"

class is over

 
Right....
You dumbass, I was saying that Jlaine was right, not me. So really you are the one that thinks they are "smrt" and doesn't know jack.
hahahahaha you are the dumbass sir.i didnt say you were wrong or whatever,i was agreeing.if you notice you laughed when jlaine said he was right and as did i.i then added to it but in no way made direct comment towards you.wow,dont you feel stupid now for calling me a dumbass?if i was you.id take a spoon,and then go find an ***,and then eat,healthy doses of *** have known to be good for people like you.let me know how it goes.iv only recommended this,so tell me if im right. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif :thumbs_up

 
And the verdict is Jlain is right BumpinDoug is wrong. The main reason most speakers are cones is to deal with the pressure and to make the cone stronger. If you take a circular peice of paper in your hand and keep it flat and move it up and down.. what happens... the paper bends. But if you make it into a cone and move it up and down it is more resistant to bending. Yes the cone may have slightly more surface area but the surface area dosn't matter. It takes extreme rigidity to keep those flat pistons from bending and creating distortion and rigidity comes at a cost... a cost that most companies are not willing to pay because the people are not willing to pay. And here is a little experiement for ya...

1. Make a cones out of paper and a circle the same diameter as the outer ring of the cone out of cardboard ( to deal with the bending i told u about )

2. Put some chalk dust or some fine type particle dust on the two subjects.

3. Get a friend to hold a flat stiff object in the air.

4. take the cone concave side up ( with the dust being in the concave ) and hit the underside of the object

5. do the same with the other piece directly next to the other print.

If you did it right u will see that it was a complete waste of your time and efforts. Oh yeah and you should also see that you get the similar chalk prints from both of them. Man im bored.

Oh yeah good work GuitarM. :thumbs_up that should have summed it all up.

 
what u mean these subs?...oh bumpindoug...dude....ok if theres 2 people i wouldnt want to argue with..jlaine and loyd would be them.hmm an adire audio dealer and a world record holder...i think theyd know their shit..wouldnt you?you dont get x amount of world records by not knowing about flat vs cone....no matter how much u think u know...theres always smarter people.ask anyone in this forum what they think of jlaine's smartness...9out10(the other 1 would be stupid)would say he knows his **** shit man.just letting you know...dont pick fights w/ them...they smurt :p
What do I mean? I mean that sometimes it's quite obvious who reads a bunch of words on an internet forum, and who's physically delt with the products. I'll be honest, it annoys me when people bash stuff.. when they've probably never heard it before.

 
While I'm being honest, guitar maestro.. what the hell did you write all that mumbo jumbo for? Ok, you're a physics major. Hoorah. If you're really that smart, why not assume that not everyone knows(or cares) what you're rambling about. Hoorah.

 
While I'm being honest, guitar maestro.. what the hell did you write all that mumbo jumbo for? Ok, you're a physics major. Hoorah. If you're really that smart, why not assume that not everyone knows(or cares) what you're rambling about. Hoorah.
so people like BumpinDoug can get it thru their thick skulls that their reasoning is wrong.....i always offer concrete proof in my arguments....its just the way i am, as a physics major....live with it

 
No actually the stuff you guys ahve been saying makes sense. I guess im wrong....hard to admit it. My physics prof knows nothing about subs....so I guess he didnt know the whoel radiating area thing. He just said that more surface area equals more air moved becuase more space is occupied by the cone that is moving. Which, logically should make sense. However I guess theres a lot mroe to it I jsut didnt understand, thanks for settin that straight

 
i hate to add to the clutter of this thread but...

i just want to say....(wether anyone wants to agree or disagree) that i did enjoy reading guitar m's post (some people didnt)....i actually learned something. and this why i love the forum. ill cruise through jlaines posts just cuz theyre nothing but raw information and experience. this forum is full of crazy shit to learn about audio- but having people post talking about how someone got "chumped" is a waste of time i think. i had to read some of the posts 3 times in this thread to get them, but thats where all the good info is... i think it would be a lot cooler to find all this crazy info without havin to sort through all the acusatory posts and all....

just a thought

-pat

 
Cones For Dummies-Guitar Maestro Edition

Cliffnote:

conedis.jpg


Booyaa!

not that it matters anymore..but its something for those that doesn't understand what guitar maestro said. lol.

saw this thread and just HAD to search though my whole computer for it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

adios!

 
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