It's war time...

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Originally posted by CarAudioAddict Yes, but libarating the people of Iraq was ONLY mentioned when people wouldn't support the US govt. sending troops in (even though the troops were already sent over).

 

The reason given to the American people WHEN the troops were sent in was that Saddam had illegal weapons, intelligence had proof (though was unwilling to reveal it), and that he must be disarmed. There was NOTHING said about liberation, or improving the lives of the Iraqi people.

 

Now it has been mentioned that the proofwas kept hidden because they didn't want to risk the informants lives, but I call BS on that one. Had the proof been released without any form of identifying the informants (which would VERY easy), then the informants lives wouldn't be risked. All anyone wanted wass PROOF, but there was NONE released, just suspicion, circumstantial evidence, and unconfirmed reports.
Response:

Simply put we went in because the resolution was being broken and this resolution included how the people were treated. How can it be said that oh, this had nothing to do with our decision; our decision was based on the resolutions that were broken. The treatment of the people can not be separated from the resolution, because it was a part of it. And no they couldn't release certain information because the lives of those giving the information would be at risk. Sadam is only going to tell his secret information to certain people. If these people let the word out and he hears the U.S. government saying that they have information stating something, Sadam can narrow it down to a small number of people and execute them. It's not BS. Remember if you had important secret information you would only tell a few people and if the word got out and you were like Sadam, or even the U.S., under this circumstance you would kill them. People are executed for espionage, even the U.S. government does this for good reason, but unlike Sadam the U.S. makes sure that the person is actually releasing information before punishment.

 
Quote:

The choice lies in the hands of this generation. Future ones will praise our courage and wisdom or curse our foolishness and cowardice.

I pray that we choose wisely.

Response:

Don't put any faith in the future generations of the U.S. I don't even have faith in my generation. I wonder how the history books will write about the U.S. when it falls will it be, "Too open minded for it's own good", "Their Ignorance of History", "Their lack of respect for their nation", "Their Lack of Care for their own Country".

 
Originally posted by joshpoints Just because gun companies support the war doesn't mean that they support it because they make guns. How can this horrible flawed assumption be made.

 

Just because Sadam has chemical weapons shells doesn't mean he plans on using them.
There is a difference between these two assumptions and because no responded I will now bring it up.

The second one doesn't take into account the fact that Sadam is quite an evil man and that he has broken the resolutions for years with the UN trying to stop him.

 
.. Sure wish I could find some sources for that..
I'm not surprised.

And if Saddam didn't think Clinton would, he certianly thought Bush would.. clearly, since he was DESTROYING MISSLES once the US brought over ~250,000 troops.. Which, again, is why I think we had a responsibility to push the diplomatic/peaceful/inspection possibility farther.. Saddam was worried and we should have taken advantage of that.. instead, we invaded..
Sorry Savant. Saddamite Hussinsein was having some stuff destroyed when Bubba was loading up troops for a "disarmament party". He stalled for time until a few antiwar people appeared at Ohio St during a press conference and it was live on CNN. Willie lacked testicular fortitude and Saddam skated free. He was using the exact same tact again. My his military preparedness it appears that they never truly believed an invasion was coming this time. Saddam played chicken one time too many.

The only thing you have been right on in this argument is that Bush I should have finished it in 1991. Instead he assumed he would win in 92 and keep the noose tight until he fell. Nobody anticipated Billy Jeff.

It's based on our helping Saddam during his war with Iran.. We were playing both sides against the middle, is how I belive you put it? How do you aid someone in a war if you aren't giving them money and weapons?
I think was in intelligence data.

I'm amazed at how evil Savant feels the U.S.
I'm not. Just one of many who for some reason assume that all who attain greatness do so by cheating. Yet they sup at the teat of American wealth and power while complaining of it's unfairness the whole while.

Yes, but libarating the people of Iraq was ONLY mentioned when people wouldn't support the US govt. sending troops in (even though the troops were already sent over).
This is a common misconception. If one studies recent history however the REMOVAL of Saddam from power, the LIBERATION OF IRAQ, and the disarmament of the Iraqi war machine, has been a stated goal of Presidents Bush I, Billy Jeff Clinton, and Bush II.

Simply put we went in because the resolution was being broken and this resolution included how the people were treated. How can it be said that oh, this had nothing to do with our decision; our decision was based on the resolutions that were broken. The treatment of the people can not be separated from the resolution, because it was a part of it.
Yeah BUT we only had SEVENTEEN RESOLUTIONS when we needed eighteen. And don't forget that was already in the works a protest to get a NINETEENTH resolution in case France did not veto the eighteenth.

Don't put any faith in the future generations of the U.S. I don't even have faith in my generation. I wonder how the history books will write about the U.S. when it falls will it be, "Too open minded for it's own good", "Their Ignorance of History", "Their lack of respect for their nation", "Their Lack of Care for their own Country".
My outlook on the future is brighter. Our young people have performed remarkably. We have the finest military the world has ever seen and it is all volunteer. Each generation has it's malcontents...and they are the one's the news reports on. "Young citizens get out of bed go to work pay their taxes serve their nation and care for their fellow man" doesn't make a headline which entices viewers. "Massive peace protests worldwide turn ugly as opposition speaks out" does. Even though they weren't massive or peaceful or world wide or really outspoken as the same small handful of hackneyed lines like "no blood for oil" (when only Iraq has went for the oil fields) and "give peace a chance" when only 1 side wanted a peaceful resolution.

PEACE

 
Quote:

It's based on our helping Saddam during his war with Iran.. We were playing both sides against the middle, is how I belive you put it? How do you aid someone in a war if you aren't giving them money and weapons? Maybe it was just money so they could buy more French and Russian weapons, that doesn't make us any less culpable..

Response:

Savant the problem with Russia France is they were supplying Iraq with illegal weapons after the resolutions were created.

 
I wonder what you would say if proof that your precious administration is doing the same thing with bin Laden that Clinton did..
This is an interesting question in many ways. You asked me the same thing awhile back as to what I would do if you could find proof that Bush II led us into a war knowing that chem/bio/nuclear weapons did not exist in Saddam's arsenal.

Well my answer here is the same. If you can show that the US let Osama escape intentionally I would say it's time for our regime to change. I doubt that it exists.

As a second point, and perhaps this is the result of a Freudian slip, but I notice that you admit to agreeing that Bily Jeff KNOWINGLY let thugs like Osama and Saddamite Hussinsein run free, when something could have been done about them, for purely political purposes. Maybe I have been too hard on you because this thought rattles the brain of most Clintonista.

Now in summation this statement of yours is a microcosm of the differences between you and I. You think the Bush administration is precious to me. The truth is that I agree with Dubya on the war issue and others as well. I also disagree with Dubya on many issues. I take each situation based on the REALITY of the situation. Whether the current administration is leftist, righ wing, or centrist has no bearing on whether something is or isn't the right thing to do.

The party I am most aligned with as to philosophy is the Libertarian party. Of the major 2 I am far more likely to do with the Republicans as flawed as they are. At least they have a cogent agenda as opposed to a bunch of 60's freaks whose only agenda is "they are wrong and want to poison your air and water and cut off Socil Security although we have no clue what we would do different".

Billy Jeff Clinton as is obvious is a man I have no respect for. That being said I agreed with much of his policy. My disagreement had to do with the nature of the person himself. IMHO a man who dodged the draft is never an acceptable choice as commander in chief. A man wh o raises his right hand under oath and commits perjury is never acceptable as head law enforcement officer. I could go on but I feel the point is made.

The same applies to Al Gore. Although the election was the closest in modern politics George won by the law as it existed. Al Gore was at one time a man I had some respect for. When 1 stoops to attempting to get military absentee ballots thrown out while at the same time attempting to kepp ballots cast by illegal immigrants in for the sole pursuit of power shows their unfitness.

One of the people I admire most on the planet is Jimmy Carter. Not that I agree with his politics so much as that I see through his deeds that his motives are pure.

In other words I make an effort to judge each leader and each major issue based on the person's character and the issue's factual merit.

What I don't do is march in mindless robotic lockstep to the rants of any group. All political groups are comprised of human beings and are therefore slanted in one direction or the other. That's fine as we are all attempting to sway other's to our point of view. It is when someone takes 1 side as fact without question and writes off the other side without question that mind's become fogged and confused.

Perhaps you should add some other venues to "bushwatch" for your news sources and give different views a fair look. Maybe your view will change? Maybe it won't? Whatever conclusion you come to at least it will be grounded in thought rather that political dogma. My $0.02.

PEACE

 
First it was I think Abu Nidal. Now Abu Abas has been arrested in Iraq. The perpetrator of the Achille Lauro hijacking and murder.

Busted in Iraq also. Of course there is no proof of any link between rerrorism and Iraq...right?

PEACE

 
I was just thinking about something. Bush declared war on terrorists. THis includes any country that harbors them. It is quite an interesting declaration for war. This allows us to go into any country that harbors them. Has there been any similar declarations of war that were this broad? Just curious.

 
Originally posted by joshpoints I could bring up 9/11 again and go through why liberalism caused this, but I won't. The liberals couldn't even see or learn from their mistakes then. If a nuke drop on the U.S. they would not learn a lesson.

 


stereotype group"liberals" caused 9/11....

=Playing the Blame Game and using it to target a stereotype....

Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr. all had info from the CIA that Bin Laden was an IMMINENT THREAT.

Neither of these parties acted successfully to prevent 9/11. I personally dont think that blaming in this fashion makes sense.

Bush Sr.'s,Clinton's, and Bush Jr.'s first 9 months in office failed to deal with the very real threat of Osama Bin Laden. Either you blame them all or u blame none of them and cite blame as a poorly qualified term for a poorly stated argument.

 
Either you blame them all or u blame none of them and cite blame as a poorly qualified term for a poorly stated argument.

Let me state it differently and demonstrate why it is a VERY valid argument.

1 of the 3 Presidents gave intelligence data to Saudi Arabia leading to Bin Laden fleeing to Sudan. Bush I.

1 of the 3 Presidents gave intelligence data to the govt of Sudan which would later lead to the govt of Sudan arresting Bin Laden and offering him to the US. Bush I.

1 of the 3 Presidents was offered Bin Laden on a solver platter by the govt of Sudan and refused him, because it might upset the Arab American voting block among other not in the best natl interest but in his own best interestreasons, leading to Sudan exiling him to Afghanistan. Billy Jeff Clinton.

1 of the 3 Presidents actually DID something about Bin Laden, the Taliban, and intl terrorism in general. Bush II.

Liberalism or conservatism is not and was not the issue. It was the courage to DO something.

Bush I was in reality a very liberal President on most issues, defense and abortion being the main 2 conservative points of his policy, and this was his ultimate undoing. Liberals generally vote overwhelmingly Democratic. Conservatives ran from Bush I in 92 and ran to Perot. Bush I out. Billy Jeff in.

Billy Jeff was at times Right Wing Rabid Conservative, Leftist neo Socialist Bleeding Heart Liberal, populist Centrist, and whatever the day called for. His failure was an absolute lack of "hallowed ground" pther than political survival. He told everybody what they wanted to here and won twice in a 3 way split. The only 2 term President to never win a majority. He ran from anything that required a decision based on principle and ran to any decision which polled well. Possibly the best politician ever born and IMHO 100 yrs from now will be viewed in the bottom 5 Presidents of all time to date. (Grant, Nixon, Carter, Clinton, Hoover, in no particular order).

Bush II is an unabashed conservative, a devoutly religious man, a stern but compassionate leader. The last word LEADER is the main reason I support the President even though we don't always agree. I have never doubted the man's motivation as being in the best interest of the country based on the data available to him...which is far more than what's available to me. The world isn't perfect but I can live with that.

PEACE

 
I would like to bring up another point. Liberals are into open boarders. You can stay in the U.S. illegally with ease. Shouldn't we have better background check on these people that our coming into our country? Open boarder increases the likelyhood of criminals coming into the country. A stat 25% of Federal prisons are filled with illegals. Then we could also bring up the fact that they are against arming marshalls in the planes, which is what Israel uses. Both of these actions liberals are against and both protect the country.

 
Valid points LWW--good input.

what remains true is that

all 3 were unsuccessfull in apprehending Bin Laden and consequently preventing 9/11...

I agree with you that opportunities in the past could have bore fruit under the watch of Bush Sr and Clinton

I would say again that niether of these 3 took the CIA's repeated red flags seriously ( Bush Jr. did of course, but not until 9/11- 9 months into his first term) Dont get me wrong though, Im glad Bush Jr. got aggressive and the campaign in afghanistan was a great success, and naturally, of the 3 he has shown the most responsiveness and willingness to take measures against the proliferation of terrorist acts perpetrated against the U.S.

Liberals are into open boarders.....

Then we could also bring up the fact that they are against arming marshalls in the planes

Oh are they?

im sure that "liberals" are according to Micheal Savage.

And according to John Judge- " Conservatives" are out to make America into a police state perpetuating the

eventual ruin of America!

once again, both statements are broad generalizations containing as much rational thought as Sadaam Hussein has on a good day.

Enough with the petty generalizations... geez!

 
Overly broad statements are a common problem with politics.

Let me give an opinion which I hope will help. IMHO MOST liberals and conservatives have the best interests of the country at heart. Liberals, for whatever reason, are more inclined buy into a sob story. Conservatives are more inclined to take a hard line stance for or against.

Now my problem isn't with mainstream liberals or conservatives it is with the radical elements of BOTH.

The problem is that the Republican party has become the party of big business, economic growth over social issues, and military power. This has good and bad but is more intellectually honest. Whether you agree or disagree you are far more llikely to get the straight scoop from this side. I'm not saying 100% factual but closer to that.

The National Democratic Party has become the Socialist Party of America de facto. With a failed welfare state and a complete loss of political power they have devolved into a group which has no agenda, or at least one that they will own up to, but will stand in the way of anyone else's agenda. This is what has led to the gridlock in getting things done.

David Bonior and John Conyers going to Baghdad last year and claiming Saddamite Hussinsein to be more trustworthy than Dubya was IMHO very close to treason.

Nearly every Dem Senator is on the record stating that Billy Jeff was guilty of the crimes to which he was brought up for impeachment BUT..."we didn't want to vote against a popular President".

Sen Byrd of WV is a former KKK member and spewed the "N" word profusely on a recent TV interview yet the Dems had no backlash at all while crucifying Trent Lott.

Al Gore admittedly picked whether to vote yea or nay in the Gulf War Rnd I resolution based on which side would give him the most speech time.

Billy Jeff when asked which way he would have voted stated he was against the war but would have voted yes because it was apparent it was going to pass anyway.

Poll leadership is not leadership.

PEACE

 
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