It's war time...

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Originally posted by ss3079 Lol, a friend of mine just e-mailed this to me:

 

An Apology to the USA

 

(Courtesy of Rick Mercer from This Hour Has 22 Minutes CBC Television)

 

On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry.

 

I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron but, it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all it's not like you actually elected him.

 

I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own.

 

I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defence I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours.

 

I'm sorry we burnt down your white house during the war of 1812. I notice you've rebuilt it! It's Very Nice.

 

I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer but, we Feel your Pain.

 

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.

 

And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this. We've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.

 

Thank you.

 

Dont take it seriously;)

 

- Steve
All it looks like the Canadians can do is apologize...not much fight in em, eh? 1812 was a long time ago, after all, we shouldn't expect much.

Hehe, j/k;)

 
Originally posted by Bumpin03 im actually a senior in high school. i am in a couple college level courses...but that doesn't mean that someone that dropped out of high school doesn't know as much as me. Neither you, nor I, nor a Harvard or Yale graduate knows enough to make the decision of war or not. We do not know the facts. The government keeps things from us..which they should. Honestly i think they tell us too much. And just so you know...my brother is a Yale graduate and is entering Harvard graduate school this upcoming fall. So unless I got the complete opposite genes as my brother, I'm not stupid. Our education system is as good as people make it. Just as our government is as good as people make it. It's those select few that oppose it and blame it on the school/government that ruin everything. Why are schools out in the country or in better parts of the city known to be better education wise? Because of the students that go there. If you really think about it...you are one of those kids in school that act up all class because they are against it and ruin it for everybody else. Just as opposing the government...you are doing nothing by opposing it besides hurting us.
All right. I was wrong, my statement was below the belt, and motivated purely by frustration because I've been arguing about this **** war on three different forums for the past week...

I'm sorry about that.

But you are wrong that opposing the government hurts the government. That is just completely untrue. Savant said it before, and it looks like I have to reitterate; our goverment WANTS us to speak out against them, they WANT us to complain, the WANT us to *****.... This is because it is constructive criticizm, what doesn't kill our government makes it stronger.

We are allowed to go against our government, and speak out about things that we don't like about it. That is part of being a DEMOCRACY. If we weren't allowed to do what I'm doing, and nobody did, the situation you seem to desire, that would be more like the Iraqi government under Sadaam.

Although, George W's use of "terror alerts" to scare the American people into supporting his war policy is a fascist ruling tool.

But once again, I apologize for the cheap shot. I just got a little worked up.

 
I'm sorry about your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer but, we Feel your Pain.
This coming from the Country that makes Pabst Blue Ribbon

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 
If we Canadians are so bad why do Americans put CANADIAN pins, flags, etc. on their luggage when they travel?
Wow double mistakes. 1-I didn't say "CANADIANS" I said "A CANADIAN". 2-I can only speak for myself but when I travel ANYWHERE I am proud to be an American...eh.

Could it be because Canadians are respected in the world while Americans aren't.
I doubt that dude. Last time I was in Canada they gave me HUGE respect. I paid $5 US to buy $3 of goods and got back and got back like $3 change. Looneys and tooneys or something. Of course the real deal is a George is worth a George in any nation on Earth while a Looney and a Tooney are worth...well let's not embarass our Canadian neighbors...eh.

Why is it that Canada Honours its FREE TRADE AGREEMENT with the US when the US goct and companies put 30%+ Tariffs on everything we buy?
Don't even try that EVERY country has import tariffs. Besides last time I was in Canada they had so many tariffs the hotel taxes were more than the room...eh.

Isn't Canada the home of the worlds larhgest Radar net, NORAD?
Yep. Paid for by Uncle Sam also. Of course somebody has to be there to defend the French, oh and the Canadians...eh.

Why is 65% of New Yorks Electricity bought off Canada?
Old issue. Because the Canadian socialist govt has ran your currency into the ground. Ask the Canadian NHL players where they want to play and whose money they take...eh.

Isn't Canada the second largest supllier of oil for the US?
I believe it's still #1, but you guys are so used to being 2nd I understand.

Could it be that Canada is more significant than you think?
Now let me say I like Canada for real and visit frequently. A bit liberal to my taste but it's not my country when I cross the border so I respect that. Now back to the debate a bit...peace is a good thing to be for and I respect that as well. Only a fool doesn't want peace, however peace cannot be defined solely by the abscence of war. I disagree with your position and think you are naive' about the realities of human nature to think that things like this are ALWAYS wrong. However I never had an issue with YOU personally until you started dogging my homeland and my Commander in Chief. Tp me thats a short step from bad mouthing my wife my sister or my momma. Now perhaps we can take the personal part out. To me you seem different than Savant in that you actually think and reason rather than bait and beotch. Why someone hates their country and stays I will never understand.

YES!!!!!! A good portion of The US's power (Economical, defense, etc.) is built on Canada.
I'm going to let that go as I think the 2 nations have a great symbiosis between them.

PEACE

 
My data had Canada #1 and I was surprised by it because I had always thought Saudi Arabia was 1st as well. But perhaps I had data which was from a 1 mth or 1 qtr abberataion so i will concede on this one. Iraq soon being #1 is a given and IMHO a good thing.

The Afghanis I think will soon replace China as a source of cheap labor also.

What many of Dubya's detractors have missed is the man is dumb like a fox. Consider:

1-Afghanistan and Pakistan are both up and coming cheap labor replacements for China, which I have many issues with.

2-Iraq will be a US friendly govt along with Kuwait putting some serious heat economicly on the Saudis, possibly leading to their overthrow similar to breaking the USSR, and likely leading to another mideast democracy...or at least enlightened by mideast standards govt such as Kuwait.

3-By placing fundamentalist Iran in a squeeze between the new Afghan and Ieaqi democracies their burgeoning young populace will likely topple the mullahs thus dropping the second of three in the "axis of evil".

4-By being allied with Pakistan and India this boiling pot is cooling off.

5-By having US friendly govts in Kuwait, Afghanistan, Turkey, Israel, and Egypt and possibly Iran and Saudi Arabia the entire mideast could look radicly different in 10 years. And before any of the peanut gallery pipes in the same thing did happen in eastern Europe under the brilliant guidance of Reagan/Bush.

Pax Americana may be the wave of the future. Peace through strength AND leadership. It can be a brave and beautiful new world.

PEACE

 
Originally posted by IS300included This coming from the Country that makes Pabst Blue Ribbon

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif
Ummm...you see the //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif's and the "dont take it seriously guys" part...

I dont know about you, but apparently others took that as..."Im just kidding around"

- Steve:rolleyes:

 
Hey, What Can You Say I Mean maybe this will turn out for the good and maybe it wont but we will have to see wont we but then again we prolly will have to pay alot of money for this war and were bascilly destrying the country that we have to rebuild the country we just destroyed so i think we just should get snipers and let them take care of it instead of those big bombs but hey its "bush". ~IM-OUT~

 
I'm going to let that go as I think the 2 nations have a great symbiosis between them.
Yes, without The US the Canada I know and love wouldn't exist. But the reverse applies as well. Lets hope that Canada-US differences never split our countries apart.

Back to the war (I'll try to leave Bush, and his govt out of it, just the war itself):

No matter how you figure it, the war cannot be justified. When and only when we discover WOMD, that were built BEFORE the war, can we say that the war was justfied.

The "regime change" is just an excuse to wage war, and has no bearing as to why the war is going on in the first place. With or without UN support, Iraq was going to be invaded, no if ands or buts, that much is certain.

I just hope that in the end, the total gains from the war outweigh the losses.

And, in case you are wondering, I am debating this war because its outcome will have as much of an effect on my life as it will yours.

BTW - I do feel that war is wrong, although sometimes war may be the only option available (eg. WWII). And I will argue FOR a justifiable war. IF/When this war becomes justified, I will change my viewpoint.

 
I would like to say the war is justified and those that disagree would be speaking German right now if it weren't for the people that see these type of threats. He has broken UN laws for the last 10 years this justifies it. It also justifies that the UN has no balls and is a joke because they should have handle this along time ago. Germany, France, being against the war is enough of a justification to go into Iraq.

 
Originally posted by joshpoints I would like to say the war is justified and those that disagree would be speaking German right now if it weren't for the people that see these type of threats. He has broken UN laws for the last 10 years this justifies it. It also justifies that the UN has no balls and is a joke because they should have handle this along time ago. Germany, France, being against the war is enough of a justification to go into Iraq.
How is it justified?

The reason troops were sent in is because Saddam had WOMD. As of yet, there is absolutley NO proof as to whether he has any or not. There is circumstantial evidence, but no proof. I don't know about you guys but if I was convicted of a crime on circumstantial evidence I would fight it to the end. Guilty or not, circumstantial evidence CANNOT be used as proof.

The closest proof there is of him having WOMD is the SUSPECTED chem plant they found. This plant was painted to match the color of the terrain, and has an electric fence surrounding it. But for all we know it is Saddams Ammunitions Depot, or even a hideout.

The only link I know of between Al-qaeda and Saddam is a money/weapons trail (feel free to post evidence to the contrary). So Saddam was NOT responsible for teh 9/11 bombings, that excuse for the war is moot.

The regime change excuse, is just that - AN EXCUSE. If the world felt that Iraq needed a regime change they would have done it 12 years ago.

So at the moment there is NO legitimate reason for invading Iraq, and so the war is NOT justified.

WWII was justified. Hitler was attepting to conquer the world, and was consumed with hatred toward the jewish people (his life was once saved by a Jewish person). Also WWII has NO bearing on the current conflict and why people keep bringing it up is beyond me.

Your last sentence there is absolutely meaningless. All it does is show the attitude I mentioned earlier - "if your not American your not worth anything". I hate to tell you this, but AMERICANS ARE NOT BETTER THAN ANYONE, NOR IS ANYONE BETTER THAN AMERICANS. We are all human beings and so, on the whole, are equal.

 
Originally posted by CarAudioAddict The reason troops were sent in is because Saddam had WOMD. As of yet, there is absolutley NO proof as to whether he has any or not. There is circumstantial evidence, but no proof. I don't know about you guys but if I was convicted of a crime on circumstantial evidence I would fight it to the end. Guilty or not, circumstantial evidence CANNOT be used as proof.
Sorry, I posted this too quickly without re-reading it through.

The reason the Troops were sent in is because Saddam supposedly wasn't co-operating with the UN. But there IS proof to the contrary. He may not have co-operated back in '91, but he was co-operating after the last resolution.

Think about it, he didn't co-operate while there was no REAL threat to him, just UN mumble-jumble. But when there were actual threats against him (war), he started to co-operate. But the war went through anyway.

I don't react to empty threats, I wouldn't expect Saddam to. The UN has no real power and so any threats they make are empty. But when countries start to back the UN then there is a real threat. Thats when Saddam started to co-operate.

 
Originally posted by LWW My data had Canada #1 and I was surprised by it because I had always thought Saudi Arabia was 1st as well. But perhaps I had data which was from a 1 mth or 1 qtr abberataion so i will concede on this one. Iraq soon being #1 is a given and IMHO a good thing.
Actually, your data reflects you.. it's tired and old.. The stuff I found showed Canada #1 in early 2001.. the data that shows 'current' supplies goes from 1st q 2003 back to 4th qtr 2001.. and Saudi was in the lead the entire time.. Course, like a fool I actaully bothered to try and put a smidgen of stake in something you said (when you flogged me for saying Saudi was #1) and now I regret it.. .. So, that leaves the only thing you have shown me wrong on in all our banter is the Clinton being a criminal thing.. oops, has NOTHING to do with any of this war stuff.. (neither did the oil supplier thing, but)

And you wonder why I have such a problem with you? you keep on acting like a 12 yr old on a playground getting support by being the one with the best name-calling ability, yet you actaully have nothing of substance to offer this debate..

Hell, the resolution you posted had NOTHING about 'disarm' date, just 30 days for a report (IIRC we got reports last year when the resolution was put in.. lots of contraversy if they were accurate).. then inspections started (not sure it was at 45 days, but..).. and updates at 60 days? So.. according to the LONG winded bullshit legaleze post you made, HE WAS STILL IN COMPLIANCE.. not that, again, I expect you to see that.. it doesn't serve your purposes to see the truth, just your version of how you want it to be.. like all the 'proof' we have so far..

The Afghanis I think will soon replace China as a source of cheap labor also.

 

What many of Dubya's detractors have missed is the man is dumb like a fox. Consider:

 

1-Afghanistan and Pakistan are both up and coming cheap labor replacements for China, which I have many issues with.
Oh.. so you are one of those.. that thinks it's great to move labor jobs from the US to some underdeveloped country so we have even FEWER jobs for Americans.. then have the nerve to bit.ch about welfare and unemployment? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

2-Iraq will be a US friendly govt along with Kuwait putting some serious heat economicly on the Saudis, possibly leading to their overthrow similar to breaking the USSR, and likely leading to another mideast democracy...or at least enlightened by mideast standards govt such as Kuwait.
Exactly.. We want easier access to Iraqi oil and a better foot in the Middle East (the start of that Middle East occupation thingy?).. Yeah, that has exactly SHIT to do with Saddam.. we aren't there to 'help' the Iraqi people, we are there to remove Saddam so we can move forward with other plans.. another example of how this is an unjust war.. it's about bettering the US on the global position, not about humanitarian efforts..

3-By placing fundamentalist Iran in a squeeze between the new Afghan and Ieaqi democracies their burgeoning young populace will likely topple the mullahs thus dropping the second of three in the "axis of evil".
More US forcing it's policy on the world.. not something we have a right to do.. Sovereign governments have as much right to exist as the US, even if we don't like them..

4-By being allied with Pakistan and India this boiling pot is cooling off.

 

5-By having US friendly govts in Kuwait, Afghanistan, Turkey, Israel, and Egypt and possibly Iran and Saudi Arabia the entire mideast could look radicly different in 10 years. And before any of the peanut gallery pipes in the same thing did happen in eastern Europe under the brilliant guidance of Reagan/Bush.

 

Pax Americana may be the wave of the future. Peace through strength AND leadership. It can be a brave and beautiful new world.

 
And you wonder why so many other people around the world despise us.. the US is trying to FORCE it's ideals and policies down their throats.. Sept. 11 was about that, nothing else.. the world (of which we are a TINY population) doesn't want to be the US..

 
Oh.. so you are one of those.. that thinks it's great to move labor jobs from the US to some underdeveloped country so we have even FEWER jobs for Americans.. then have the nerve to bit.ch about welfare and unemployment?
Uhhhh...no. But I am realistic enough to know that there are some jobs which are going to be farmed out of country because performing them is of less value than our minimum wage dictates. Now reing a REALIST as opposed to an absolutist I see the lesser of 2 evils being that sub minimum wage jobs if they must be sent out of country be sent to areas friendly to us as opposed to those sworn to our destruction.

Exactly.. We want easier access to Iraqi oil and a better foot in the Middle East (the start of that Middle East occupation thingy?).. Yeah, that has exactly SHIT to do with Saddam.. we aren't there to 'help' the Iraqi people, we are there to remove Saddam so we can move forward with other plans.. another example of how this is an unjust war.. it's about bettering the US on the global position, not about humanitarian efforts..
Exactly more twisted flatulence. OCCUPATION MEANS TAKING AND KEEPING! Liberation means freeing from tyranny. This is part of a big picture. As President Musharraf said the first step in stopping global terrorism is to "drain the swamp" in which they breed. This is a step in that. As was the Afghan war. It also helps free the Iraqi people. It also removes a dung beetle from power. It also helps guarantee the free flow of oil on which we depend. It also sees to it that the Iraqi people are BETTERED. MORE than 1 reason to do something does not ameliorate any of the reasons.

And you wonder why so many other people around the world despise us.. the US is trying to FORCE it's ideals and policies down their throats.. Sept. 11 was about that, nothing else.. the world (of which we are a TINY population) doesn't want to be the US..
Yeah. I see all the people in Basrah are rioting because we did in Saddam's thugs. Last time I checked we had a long line of people wanting IN the USA and none wanting out. Not that it matters to the hate America group but the Iraqi AND Afghan governments were both illegitimate. Both seized power and were both puppets of foreign masters upon inception. Neither gave a rat's anus about the will of the people. When you have a cogent argument olease return.

Hell, the resolution you posted had NOTHING about 'disarm' date, just 30 days for a report (IIRC we got reports last year when the resolution was put in.. lots of contraversy if they were accurate).. then inspections started (not sure it was at 45 days, but..).. and updates at 60 days? So.. according to the LONG winded bullshit legaleze post you made, HE WAS STILL IN COMPLIANCE..
Ummm...please refer to the following R-E-A-L-I-T-Y. REALITY. Good for you. Good for me. REALITY:

The Security Council, 

Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,

Recalling that its resolution 678 authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 and to restore international peace and security in the area,

 

Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 , of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred and fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,

 

Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites

 

Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the Council’s repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,

Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 , 687 , and 1284 to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,

 

Recalling that in its resolution 687 the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,

 

1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 , in particular through Iraq’s failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687;

2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 and subsequent resolutions of the Council;

3. Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;
By your comment I can only come to 2 conclusions:

1-You can't read the English languare.

2-THEY WAS A WHOLE LOT OF DEPLORING GOING ON FOR SOMEONE IN COMPLIANCE!

peace

 
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