Help Needed: Tuning System

[RUGERJITSU 10+ year member]

Got my car back from the install, and I'm needing a better understanding on how to tune the system. I realize there may be a "break in" period, and the shop has advised me to listen to all types of music and come back in a few weeks to have them take a listen and dial it in if needed. They also advised me that there is plenty of room for more bass if needed, but this would be a good starting point.

My first impressions on the sound:

1. There seems to be a gap between the mids and the sub.

2. The mids seem to be overpowering the sub.

3. I think more depth is needed at lower volume. I don't always want to listen to my music at full blast to get the full depth of the music.

4. The highs seem a bit harsh.

Vehicle:

2008 Honda Accord Sedan EX-L V6

Equipment:

H/U: Alpine 149BT

Amp: Arc KS 300.4

Front Stage: Focal PS 165F (Flax) - Hush Mat added to doors.

Sub: Focal SB P30 - Located in the trunk, sub facing rear.

The Alpine has a 9 band EQ, and many other tuning features. Everything was set to 0 (Bass/Treble), except for the Subwoofer level, which they set at 10 out of 15. Defeat was off, and they did not set any of the EQ bands. I'm assuming this was done so that we have a nice starting point for the "break in" period, then later on it can be dialed in. I'm not educated on how to dial these features in, but I'm hoping there's at least some basic "rules" or ideas that will help me understand things a little better.

Thanks!

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[bbeljefe]

I don't know what they meant by plenty of room for more bass. You have a single sub on not a lot of power in a trunk... there's not much boom to be had in that scenario.

I'm not sure what you mean by a gap between sub and mid though. Do you mean the sub isn't loud enough or do you mean there is a loss of response between the highest frequencies the sub plays and the lowest frequencies the mids play? I suspect the latter and it would be good to know where they have the crossovers set on the amplifier. A picture would tell a thousand words.

As for a break in period... the stuff is going to break in whether you play it at full volume or at half volume and you won't break anything by playing it however you plan to play it right out of the box. The suspension on the subwoofer will loosen up a bit and it will play slightly lower after "break in" but other than that, don't expect some sort of dramatic increase in sound quality or sound pressure. In simple terms, there is no break in needed and nothing you can do will help or hurt the long term performance of the equipment so long as it's set up properly.

One thing I don't like about how they set the system is that they set the sub at level 10 of 15. If that's the setting they used for gain setting, then they left a good bit of subwoofer output on the table. Not to mention, the opened you up to clipping the sub if you turn the sub level up. On Alpine head units the subwoofer level has no boost, so level 15 is simply a flat or unattenuated signal level and gain setting should be done with it all the way up (at 15).

I'm also curious where they set the volume level when they gain set. I'd have to double check an Alpine head unit but the preamp outs should be clean up to either 28 or 34 of 35 and if they set the gain with it lower, then they effectively set your system up for dangerous clipping similar to how they set the sub. And... that would just make the sub setting even worse. It would also limit the tonal quality of the system, which seems to be one of your complaints.

In any event, a picture of the amplifier settings and answers to those questions will help a lot.

 

[RUGERJITSU 10+ year member]

I don't know what they meant by plenty of room for more bass. You have a single sub on not a lot of power in a trunk... there's not much boom to be had in that scenario.
I get that, and the goal of the system was not geared towards spl or rattling bass. I'm assuming they meant the bass volume could be increased if desired.

I'm not sure what you mean by a gap between sub and mid though. Do you mean the sub isn't loud enough or do you mean there is a loss of response between the highest frequencies the sub plays and the lowest frequencies the mids play? I suspect the latter and it would be good to know where they have the crossovers set on the amplifier. A picture would tell a thousand words.

You suspected correctly. I just went out to the car during my lunch and took a look at the amp for the first time. The amp was set on High Pass and the frequency dial was set just below 110hz. I set it to Full Range, and set the frequency dial down just a notch, most likely in the 80-90hz range. After doing this, and turning the sub off, the Focal Mids sounded much better...

As for a break in period... the stuff is going to break in whether you play it at full volume or at half volume and you won't break anything by playing it however you plan to play it right out of the box. The suspension on the subwoofer will loosen up a bit and it will play slightly lower after "break in" but other than that, don't expect some sort of dramatic increase in sound quality or sound pressure. In simple terms, there is no break in needed and nothing you can do will help or hurt the long term performance of the equipment so long as it's set up properly.

Thanks for that explanation.

One thing I don't like about how they set the system is that they set the sub at level 10 of 15. If that's the setting they used for gain setting, then they left a good bit of subwoofer output on the table. Not to mention, the opened you up to clipping the sub if you turn the sub level up. On Alpine head units the subwoofer level has no boost, so level 15 is simply a flat or unattenuated signal level and gain setting should be done with it all the way up (at 15).

I have no idea about the "gain setting", but on the Alpine H/U the Sub dial was set at 10 out of 15. I played with that setting and I could place it at 15 with the volume set around 29 and not have any distortion. I also noticed on the amp there is a x1/x10 button, it was set at the x1 setting. I set it at x10 and noticed a nice bump in the bass volume. And again, with the x10 setting, there was no distortion at high volumes. I'm quite uneducated on the "gain setting" on amps, but the installer mentioned the gain for the sub was set at around 25%. I didn't touch the gain...and the 25% setting of the gain, that means nothing to me, but I would assume that by increasing the gain it would create more bass at a lower volume??

I'm also curious where they set the volume level when they gain set. I'd have to double check an Alpine head unit but the preamp outs should be clean up to either 28 or 34 of 35 and if they set the gain with it lower, then they effectively set your system up for dangerous clipping similar to how they set the sub. And... that would just make the sub setting even worse. It would also limit the tonal quality of the system, which seems to be one of your complaints.

The volume dial can be cranked all the way to 30 with no distortion, and i think max is at 34 or 35.

In any event, a picture of the amplifier settings and answers to those questions will help a lot.

I'll see if I can get a picture loaded up in the next day or two...thanks for your input!

 

[RUGERJITSU 10+ year member]

After further listening last night, I think I have it dialed in nicely. The sound is amazing! However, I do question my method of switching the amp to full range to the components. I'm assuming by setting to full range, I still have control of the frequency by using the dial set on or around the 80-90hz range...am I right??

 

[bbeljefe]

Sounds like things are better than I originally thought. But no, you do not have control of the crossover frequency when the amp is set to full range. Full range is a pretty straight forward description of the signal you're feeding the mids, in that it means they're getting everything the source has to offer, from 20Hz to 20KHz.

When in full range mode, the crossover is bypassed and has no effect. Normally, the best setting for high pass crossovers is 80Hz. This will cut everything below the crossover frequency at a predetermined slope... which is 18-24dB per octave. Mids don't generally do well on frequencies below 80Hz so that's where they should be cut off. Likewise, 20-80Hz is the sub bass frequency range so your low pass filter on the subwoofer channels should be set to 80Hz as well.

The easiest way to set the HP crossover without tools is to disconnect the subwoofers, set the hp filter as close as you can get to 80 (usually they're not marked very well) and then play the system at a loud volume level. Adjust the crossover until the mids play as low as possible without distortion and then, set the lp filter on the subs at the same point.

 

[RUGERJITSU 10+ year member]

Sounds like things are better than I originally thought. But no, you do not have control of the crossover frequency when the amp is set to full range. Full range is a pretty straight forward description of the signal you're feeding the mids, in that it means they're getting everything the source has to offer, from 20Hz to 20KHz.
When in full range mode, the crossover is bypassed and has no effect. Normally, the best setting for high pass crossovers is 80Hz. This will cut everything below the crossover frequency at a predetermined slope... which is 18-24dB per octave. Mids don't generally do well on frequencies below 80Hz so that's where they should be cut off. Likewise, 20-80Hz is the sub bass frequency range so your low pass filter on the subwoofer channels should be set to 80Hz as well.

The easiest way to set the HP crossover without tools is to disconnect the subwoofers, set the hp filter as close as you can get to 80 (usually they're not marked very well) and then play the system at a loud volume level. Adjust the crossover until the mids play as low as possible without distortion and then, set the lp filter on the subs at the same point.

I had a hunch I was doing something wrong, but even with Full Range there was little to no distortion! I'll go back and set the HP on, and adjust the frequency dial a little more towards 80hz and see how that goes.

thanks for the help!

 

[RUGERJITSU 10+ year member]

Set the fronts to HP and dialed the frequency in the 80-90hz range, then dialed the sub frequency the same. I really didn't expect much change, but the clarity and sound jumped a notch...especially in the lower volume range. I had my doubts, but all my expectations have been surpassed! I really questioned the installer when he advised me that I didn't need 1000 watt system to have the sound I desired...honestly, it seems like that's all I'm seeing here on the forum! I've got 350 watts into a single 12" sub in a Focal prebuilt ported box. The volume and sound is incredible, and there's no strain on my car's electrics...

 

[bbeljefe]

I'm glad you got it all sorted out. But now comes the test of whether or not you're a true basshead. You may or may not have the disease but time will tell...

If so, that 350 watts in a prefab won't be loud for long. Maybe two weeks to a month. After that, you'll want more and you'll spare no expense to get it. You'll be pouring over sub specs and amp prices until late in the night... trying to figure out how much space you can sacrifice for more subs. And then come the electrical upgrades. You'll be dreaming about high output alternators and demons will chase you in your dreams, trying to tie you up with flexible 1/0 power wire. You'll start to bore your friends and family with Youtube videos of windshield flex and your wife will think you have an online mistress. And no matter how much power you get... nor how many subs you have... it will never... ever... be enough.

Or, you'll be happy with what you have and it will last you for years.

 

[RUGERJITSU 10+ year member]

I'm glad you got it all sorted out. But now comes the test of whether or not you're a true basshead. You may or may not have the disease but time will tell...
If so, that 350 watts in a prefab won't be loud for long. Maybe two weeks to a month. After that, you'll want more and you'll spare no expense to get it. You'll be pouring over sub specs and amp prices until late in the night... trying to figure out how much space you can sacrifice for more subs. And then come the electrical upgrades. You'll be dreaming about high output alternators and demons will chase you in your dreams, trying to tie you up with flexible 1/0 power wire. You'll start to bore your friends and family with Youtube videos of windshield flex and your wife will think you have an online mistress. And no matter how much power you get... nor how many subs you have... it will never... ever... be enough.

Or, you'll be happy with what you have and it will last you for years.

oh man...i better be happy with this for a while! you know, i started thinking about a system about 2 months ago...reading through this forum, I had it in my head that I needed 1000 watts into a sub to get it sounding good. seems that's almost the minimum guys are pushing into their systems around here. do you think that needing a 1000 watts to power a sub to get a good sounding system is a common misconception? i mean, for the average guy...not wanting to enter any contests, but just wanting a good hitting, quality sound system, isn't that 1000 watts a bit of a reach? I can't imagine 1000 watts after hearing what only 350 will do...

 

[RUGERJITSU 10+ year member]

I'm glad you got it all sorted out. But now comes the test of whether or not you're a true basshead. You may or may not have the disease but time will tell...
If so, that 350 watts in a prefab won't be loud for long. Maybe two weeks to a month. After that, you'll want more and you'll spare no expense to get it. You'll be pouring over sub specs and amp prices until late in the night... trying to figure out how much space you can sacrifice for more subs. And then come the electrical upgrades. You'll be dreaming about high output alternators and demons will chase you in your dreams, trying to tie you up with flexible 1/0 power wire. You'll start to bore your friends and family with Youtube videos of windshield flex and your wife will think you have an online mistress. And no matter how much power you get... nor how many subs you have... it will never... ever... be enough.

Or, you'll be happy with what you have and it will last you for years.

quick question, it just occurred to me that I have the x1/x10 button on the amp for the channels pushing my sub on the "x10" setting. initially, i was thinking x10 meant more power...but after thinking about it, doesn't that mean whatever frequency i have dialed in for the low pass x10? (80hz x10 = 800hz) if that's true, I have the sub frequency too high, no?

 

[bbeljefe]

quick question, it just occurred to me that I have the x1/x10 button on the amp for the channels pushing my sub on the "x10" setting. initially, i was thinking x10 meant more power...but after thinking about it, doesn't that mean whatever frequency i have dialed in for the low pass x10? (80hz x10 = 800hz) if that's true, I have the sub frequency too high, no?

You are correct.

 

[RUGERJITSU 10+ year member]

You are correct.

I believe I have the frequency on my amp dialed in for both the components and sub. The music has a real nice blend, the sub seems to work very efficiently in concert with the components.

My next question would be about the EQ settings on the H/U. Is it common to just leave the EQ setting alone? I ask this for two reasons:

1. I can't imagine the sound getting any better.

2. I don't feel educated enough to play with the settings, and I'm afraid I'll just end up messing something up.

Is there any tips or maybe a good website like "tuning the EQ for dummies" that I could read up on? My H/U has a 9 band Parametric EQ, and my assumption would be that picking a certain frequency and dialing it up or down would either boost that frequency or tone it down, am I right? So, if I thought the components or sub lacked in a certain area, I could use the EQ to clean it up or emphasize that area.

thanks!