Glenn Beck

Liberals pick the "wall of separation" side and conservatives don't. Public education has swerved headlong down the liberal chute since the establishment of the DOE in the late 70's under the Carter administration. That is when much of the historical local control of the public school system was handed over to the Federal Gov't and the teacher's unions. It's considered "liberal bullshit" when only one side of the debate is injected into the public school system and is passed off as established fact with little or no rebuttal. I can copy wiki too I suppose, but you should check out the following: Brief on Separation of Church and State, Part I
Im not interested in debating the separation of church and state with you, you've never shown me any ability to have a rational debate involving God. Im simply pointing out that you claim the educational system teaches 'liberal bullshit' like separation of church/state, but its fact. Its not bullshit, the 'founding fathers' intended it specifically. And if you think its just liberal propaganda, I guess Thomas Jefferson was just a liberal nut job?

Your attempt to veer the conversation away from your clear error and instead discuss post 1970 politics only shows you are still unable to admit you dont know everything about God and man.

 
Im not interested in debating the separation of church and state with you, you've never shown me any ability to have a rational debate involving God. Im simply pointing out that you claim the educational system teaches 'liberal bullshit' like separation of church/state, but its fact. Its not bullshit, the 'founding fathers' intended it specifically. And if you think its just liberal propaganda, I guess Thomas Jefferson was just a liberal nut job?
Your attempt to veer the conversation away from your clear error and instead discuss post 1970 politics only shows you are still unable to admit you dont know everything about God and man.
You can't debate it because it is not absolute "fact". Separation of church and state, specifically the "wall of separation" has been debated for years and will continue to be debated. That you seem to think it is resolved shows how ignorant you are on the subject. And your quick response indicates you have no interest in reading the brief I linked. I was also not aware that a letter to the Danbury Baptists from Thomas Jefferson automatically means that ALL of the "founding fathers" agreed that there should be a "wall of separation" between church and state. Again, I think you need to read the brief I linked. Until you have, any responses you post on this subject are indeed completely ignorant on the subject.

 
I stand corrected, it not in the bill of rights in verbatim. Nevertheless, the intent is still stupidly obvious. "no law respecting an establishment of religion". That means religion is to stay out of government, and of course vice-versa. If religion was tied to our government, then that would be an establishment of religion. It goes beyond the lives of private citizens and protecting their rights. Your small mind obviously can't understand this. If you question the interpretation, there are many sources to back up the interpretation of what the founding fathers meant.
Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists (June 1998) - Library of Congress Information Bulletin (Here is your "wall of separation", written by Thomas Jefferson)

US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

Signed by John Adams.

Thomas Jefferson quotes
You should read the brief I linked for audio...Brief on Separation of Church and State, Part I

Maybe this excerpt from it will help:

The First Amendment as written seems too simple for American society to assimilate, complicating its meaning and clogging its application just to placate the need for incessant legal and philosophical calisthenics. The Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses of the First Amendment address only the historical contentions that precipitated them: 1) no legal establishment of one sect of Christianity or another religion as the national religion; 2) no legal prohibition against the free exercise of religious conscience of any religions, especially minority ones; 3); no taxation of the citizenry for the support of a legally preferred religion and 4) no religious test as a prerequisite to hold public office. The first three contentions can be categorized as the “historical test” or standard applicable to litigation touching the religion clauses. Since Article VI of the Constitution addressed the last contention, the “historical test” need not include it. To secure the freedom to exercise religious conscience, the Bill of Rights proscribes the federal government, and subsequently state governments via the 14th Amendment, from affirmatively engaging in the first two contentions. If seen as working together, the Establishment Clause actually protects the Free Exercise Clause. By not establishing one denomination over another through governmental edict, the Establishment Clause guarantees that all religions are free from governmental meddling, have freedom of expression, and that all religious people have freedom of conscience. Jefferson’s “wall of separation”—if applied to the contentions within the confines of their historical meaning—reduces to one conception: that governments in the United States may not prefer or proscribe one religion over another or hinder the freedom of religious expression and practice. Jefferson’s Bill for the Establishment Religious Freedom summarizes his views:

WE the General Assembly of Virginia do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. [111]

Jefferson’s absolute separation of church and state is explicit in the statement “that no man shall be compelled to…support any religious worship…whatsoever.” Though Jefferson ascribed to the most rigid form of separation that prohibited almost all aid and support, the majority of the Framers, however, did not share his view.

According to Michael J. Malbin, most of the Framers ascribed to erecting a wall of separation, but that wall only prohibited the state from preferring one religion to another. [112] To them, non-discriminatory aid and support of all religions was not violative of the Bill of Rights. His analysis of the Framers’ intent additionally supports the view that the Establishment Clause also prohibited the federal government from establishing a legally recognized national religion, like the Anglican Church was in England and in Virginia. If this is the historical consensus, there is no reason to favor the opinions of one man when at least fifty-four other competent Framers did not agree. In drafting the Bill of Rights, Madison did not adhere to Jefferson’s “Bill for Religious Freedom” as his template. His main concern was prohibiting the establishment of a national religion and its preferential treatment. This is precisely the contention the colonists had with the Church of England and with “established” churches in Massachusetts that wanted to preserve their society as a Christian Commonwealth. There is nothing more to add and nothing more to fabricate. Precious legal time would not have been wasted on the myriad of legal cases dealing with this issue had judges and legislators been consistent in the application of this simple test. There would be no discrimination in applying this principle across the board, as non-profit 503©(3) status is available to all religions. The only individuals that would encounter problems asserting First Amendment violations would be those who have no “god,” since the historical definition of religion in this country has “God” as the central figure to whom mankind renders worship, allegiance, gratitude, and obedience. That the non-religious has no standing in the religion clauses is self-evident and not inconsistent given the historical contentions. Furthermore, there are social benefits the non-religious may reap from uniform support of religion, since accountability to authority and moral rectitude reinforced through religious teaching will minimize social loss, as James McHenry rightly observed.
 
You can't debate it because it is not absolute "fact". Separation of church and state, specifically the "wall of separation" has been debated for years and will continue to be debated. That you seem to think it is resolved shows how ignorant you are on the subject. And your quick response indicates you have no interest in reading the brief I linked. I was also not aware that a letter to the Danbury Baptists from Thomas Jefferson automatically means that ALL of the "founding fathers" agreed that there should be a "wall of separation" between church and state. Again, I think you need to read the brief I linked. Until you have, any responses you post on this subject are indeed completely ignorant on the subject.
It is an absolute fact that the separation of church and state was a deliberate act, not 'liberal bullshit' our educational system is forcing on our children. Your link does not deny that fact. You want me to read your link because you want to lure me into debating you on the merits of separation of church and state. Once again, an obvious attempt to divert the discussion away from the topic you were just shown to be incorrect about.

"I was also not aware that a letter to the Danbury Baptists from Thomas Jefferson automatically means that ALL of the "founding fathers" agreed that there should be a "wall of separation" between church and state."

This logic is flawed on many levels. Let me point out a few: One, whether or not "ALL" of the founding fathers agreed is not the point.

Second, your original point I discussed was that the separation of church and state was 'liberal bullshit' our education system tells our kids to trick them. Whether or not "ALL" of the founding fathers, or merely "some" of them felt this way, is like arguing that the titanic sunk because of just one hole, not three. The point is it still sunk, just like your point that separation of church and state is just liberal propaganda.

Third, nobody claimed "ALL" the founding fathers agreed on this point. Not even the link I provided, that YOU apparently didnt read fully. It clearly said "several of the Founders of the United States".

Lastly, your repeated attempts to veer the discussion away from the true topic (whether or not separation of church and state is merely liberal bullshit) and onto your new topic of whether or not its a valid stance, or how many founding fathers agreed to it, or what they actually meant to separate, only shows you know you were wrong on the original topic but are too afraid to admit it. Why is it so hard for you to say "oops, I was wrong"...? We all know you dont know everything, some might even say you dont know much... so you can stop worrying about your image as the local know-it-all.

Let me know if you ever decide to discuss the actual topic I was talking about.

 
I look at it from the stand point of "lobbying" so we didn't end up like Rome. Yet especially now it seems like our government wants to "lobby" religion in the name of illegal immigration. Funny how this gets worked.

 
It is an absolute fact that the separation of church and state was a deliberate act, not 'liberal bullshit' our educational system is forcing on our children. Your link does not deny that fact. You want me to read your link because you want to lure me into debating you on the merits of separation of church and state. Once again, an obvious attempt to divert the discussion away from the topic you were just shown to be incorrect about.
"I was also not aware that a letter to the Danbury Baptists from Thomas Jefferson automatically means that ALL of the "founding fathers" agreed that there should be a "wall of separation" between church and state."

This logic is flawed on many levels. Let me point out a few: One, whether or not "ALL" of the founding fathers agreed is not the point.

Second, your original point I discussed was that the separation of church and state was 'liberal bullshit' our education system tells our kids to trick them. Whether or not "ALL" of the founding fathers, or merely "some" of them felt this way, is like arguing that the titanic sunk because of just one hole, not three. The point is it still sunk, just like your point that separation of church and state is just liberal propaganda.

Third, nobody claimed "ALL" the founding fathers agreed on this point. Not even the link I provided, that YOU apparently didnt read fully. It clearly said "several of the Founders of the United States".

Lastly, your repeated attempts to veer the discussion away from the true topic (whether or not separation of church and state is merely liberal bullshit) and onto your new topic of whether or not its a valid stance, or how many founding fathers agreed to it, or what they actually meant to separate, only shows you know you were wrong on the original topic but are too afraid to admit it. Why is it so hard for you to say "oops, I was wrong"...? We all know you dont know everything, some might even say you dont know much... so you can stop worrying about your image as the local know-it-all.

Let me know if you ever decide to discuss the actual topic I was talking about.
You didn't read the brief, did you? Let me answer that for you, no, you didn't. Why? Because...

1. You have an ego the size of Internet.

2. You take shit WAY too seriously.

3. You whine, A LOT.

4. You are NEVER wrong (at least in your large, egomaniacal mind).

5. You are ALWAYS right (see #4).

6. You have an opinion on EVERYTHING.

7. You are an EXPERT on EVERYTHING.

8. You have to have the last word on EVERYTHING.

9. You are arrogant and condescending.

10. You're a pinhead.
At least you are once again living up to what we all expect from you here on ca.com.

When you have read the brief I linked and have something intelligent to say on the subject, I'm not bothering anymore.

Yes, you are quite the tool. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif

 
You didn't read the brief, did you? Let me answer that for you, no, you didn't. Why? Because...


At least you are once again living up to what we all expect from you here on ca.com.

When you have read the brief I linked and have something intelligent to say on the subject, I'm not bothering anymore.

Yes, you are quite the tool. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/fyi.gif.9f1f679348da7204ce960cfc74bca8e0.gif
Ah yes, your true colors show through, again. When faced with the dilemma of admitting you were wrong, you instead choose the low road and go on the attack with name calling. Oh gosh, you think Im a 'tool', whatever will I do. Im crying irl here, no really.

You have not established that the 'wall of separation between church and state' is merely 'liberal bullshit'. All you've done is claimed it, and posted a link debating the depth of that phases intended meaning (oh yes, I read it). How many times must I point out you continue to avoid the original topic of our disagreement? Maybe you think I'll forget? I wont.

 
I'd like to congratulate snoopdan on a successful troll post. If you guys really think he's going to make a thread on here talking about his beliefs and feelings being 100% genuine you have not followed him long enough. Second, if you don't care what someone says or it has no credibility simply disregard it or make a competent rebuttal against it. Do not spew hatred.

I am a well educated person and know US History quite well. I also study economics. I also have unrelenting faith in people.

I look at our two party system and see two corrupted entities. They are both driven by polar opposite ideologies.

One ideology like me, has unrelenting faith in people... that with given the opportunity to succeed the people will. We believe that the desire to not only survive but to flourish, encourages thought, new ideas and the development of skills and industry.

The other ideology believes that the successful people should be responsible for underachievers. That the playing field should not be leveled, but the score should. They believe that just because someone has every opportunity in the world to succeed, does not mean that they should suffer any consequences if they fail to act on those chances. They believe that people that DO act on those chances and take risks and enjoy success, should be punished for their success, that they have far too much and it is unfair.

It is my belief that compassion for failure is an insult to those that have failed. To tell them, "It's ok. You are just not capable." shows an utter lack of confidence, if not a hatred for fellow man.

One cannot encourage success by rewarding failure and punishing success. That is a losing strategy and it cannot be sustained.

 
So is there a separation of church and state or not?
Because I wanna know what right the state has fucking with a making decisions about a religious ceremony like marriage.
Unfortunately, because tax laws are affected by marital status, they now have a foot hold to suggest they control the entire marriage contract. I say we drop all references to marital status in the tax system, and get government out of our personal relationships.

 
So is there a separation of church and state or not?
Because I wanna know what right the state has fucking with a making decisions about a religious ceremony like marriage.
I didn't read the thread, but the founders created this so that the government they were creating could not be ruled by the church. Had they had just a little more foresight, they could have eliminated special interest groups and lobbyists altogether. Instead they merely eliminated the church as a lobbyist. Up until the late 1900's it was still acceptable to have a religious class in public school. From this we can apply simple logic and know what the original intent actually was. There are a lot of people with ulterior motives that thrive on bastardizing laws by "interpreting" them in ways that suit aforementioned motives. These people have contorted our Seperation of Church and State to now mean something totally different than it was originally intended for. Whether their motives are purely political or anti-religious or both it does not matter. The result is the same.

I would also contend that If you do not believe in an organized religion, you still believe in religion. Science is a religion. How many theories do people believe in that cannot be proved? LOTS. I'm not saying science is a bad thing. It's a good thing when used correctly, but like anything else it can be manipulated for other purposes. Things like "scientific consensus" are a bastardization of the scientific method and the scientific community altogether, yet the conclusions they come to are accepted without question by those who claim to be mentally superior to the religious community.

 
I'd like to congratulate snoopdan on a successful troll post. If you guys really think he's going to make a thread on here talking about his beliefs and feelings being 100% genuine you have not followed him long enough. Second, if you don't care what someone says or it has no credibility simply disregard it or make a competent rebuttal against it. Do not spew hatred. I am a well educated person and know US History quite well. I also study economics. I also have unrelenting faith in people.

I look at our two party system and see two corrupted entities. They are both driven by polar opposite ideologies.

One ideology like me, has unrelenting faith in people... that with given the opportunity to succeed the people will. We believe that the desire to not only survive but to flourish, encourages thought, new ideas and the development of skills and industry.

The other ideology believes that the successful people should be responsible for underachievers. That the playing field should not be leveled, but the score should. They believe that just because someone has every opportunity in the world to succeed, does not mean that they should suffer any consequences if they fail to act on those chances. They believe that people that DO act on those chances and take risks and enjoy success, should be punished for their success, that they have far too much and it is unfair.

It is my belief that compassion for failure is an insult to those that have failed. To tell them, "It's ok. You are just not capable." shows an utter lack of confidence, if not a hatred for fellow man.

One cannot encourage success by rewarding failure and punishing success. That is a losing strategy and it cannot be sustained.
Our 2 party system leaves much to be desired. Its a polarized entity in and of itself. So obviously it will encourage citizens to fall into the same neat and orderly categories they provide. There's plenty of evidence to suggest the two parties currently in power are working to keep any third political party from gaining any real political power.

 
These people have contorted our Seperation of Church and State to now mean something totally different than it was originally intended for.
As much as it would surprise spanky, I agree with you. Many people today interpret the idea of separation of church and state in a perverse manner. Removing the bill of rights from walls of local courthouses is a perfect example. My debate with spanky merely pointed out that 'separation of church and state' is not liberal propaganda by our educational system. In school, I was never taught that separation of church/state meant we shouldn't say the pledge of allegiance.

 
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