friend lacks midbass - need help!

[jaygeorge1979 10+ year member]

ok so maybe this isnt a subwoofer section question, but i figure its ok

my buddy has a system is his camaro which roughly consists of a clarion headunit, kenwood amp, and orion subs...he has complained that he cant really feel the thump of a good kick drum....all he hears is superlow stuff and he wants more midbass....i have already messed with the amps Xovers and we cant get the sound he wants

i read a CAAE article about how the kick drum thump is heard between 100 and 500 Hz, which isnt within the Orion's ideal operating range, so he wants to get some midbass drivers...his in dash speakers are small so no chance of midbass there

he wants to spend around 60 bucks on a pair of decent midbass drivers....im gonna build the boxes for him, and he is gonna use an amplifier whose specs i currently dont have...ill look em up and post em later...its a decent amplifier, not HUGe power but not weak either...

any suggestions for brands? anything you have used personally that you can recommend? any other approaches to fixing this problem?

thanks to all replies //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Click to read more...

 

[jaygeorge1979 10+ year member]

one example of what i am looking at is this audax 6.5 midbass

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=296-165

good price range, decent power handling..only problem is that it isnt a car audio driver, but it shouldnt be that big a deal, disregarding the different impedences

 

[MemphisSoul4U 10+ year member]

Tangband 6.5 FTW...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-832

 

[jgarcia9102 10+ year member]

you want midbass speakers to be mounted infront of you, so keep that in mind. you cant just build any box, you will need to mount them in the door or kicks.

for drivers, i know people are always recomending tangband and daytons, and they are on parts express too.

edit: beat to it, but heres a link to some daytons: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=295-362

 

[jaygeorge1979 10+ year member]

in front of you? really? i didnt now that...he is gonna be hard pressed to find room in the front without some more difficult custom work...what is wrong with mounting them behind you? precisely how does it affect the sound?

also, which models of the TB and daytons are you referring to? and sizes also...for my application, would choosing 6 or 7 inches make a difference?

thanks to replies thus far //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[jaygeorge1979 10+ year member]

Tangband 6.5 FTW...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-832

that is a subwoofer...isnt a midbass driver what i would want in this case?

 

[MemphisSoul4U 10+ year member]

It also plays midbass frequencies quite well.

 

[MemphisSoul4U 10+ year member]

Or here you go...

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-852

Still plays to 45...

 

[jujumantb 10+ year member]

IMO, in the midbass area, people are too often too concerned with the driver and not concerned enough with the install. Time and time again, people who have poor midbass will see, like, an XXX mid and think dropping it into their doors will solve their issues, it usually wont. Like I've said time and time again, midbass is 10% driver, 90% install. You'd be very surprised with the midbass performace I've gotten out of very mediocre drivers by taking care in the install.

You need to make sure, #1, you have correct air space, this is an issue with alot of people when they make kickpods. They dont make them large enough and midbass performance is badly hurt, venting them into the carpet can help somewhat, but this leads into #2, make sure the front and back waves are completely seperated! This is an issue in alot of people's doors. They make their pretty baffle/adaptor and drop the speakers in, not thinking to completely isolate all the holes that allow the front and back waves to mix (cover with sound deadening), and, as you know, playing a speaker out of any enclosure will result in NO midbass performance.

If you make sure to do these two things, I guarantee you wont need any hardcore midbass driver and tons of power to get good results. As any veteran guy knows, the less speakers, the better. Being able to get great midbass performance out of a decent midrange/midbass combo is just one less thing to have issues with in imaging and cancellation.

 

[jaygeorge1979 10+ year member]

thanks double-ju...helpful post!

seriously tho, i need to know whether or not i can put some midbass boxes in the rear...its a hatchbak style vehicle so i have plenty of room....unless this is totally out of the question, of course...

any other opinions on whether i should focus on a small subwoofer (the tang) or an actual midbass driver?

thanks guys //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

While I like the article for the fact that it stresses the importance of having adequate midbass drivers to acheive the "impact" and "kick" most people enjoy.....I thoroughly disagree with their idea that they must be in an enclosure, and that the enclosure size is unimportant. That's total hogwash ********, and frankly they need slapped for printing such assinine information.

The enclosure (or lack thereof, as many midbass are designed to operate optimally in an infinite baffle setup) and enclosure size are of utmost importance to good performance. You can not just stick any speaker in any enclosure and expect good results as they portrayed in that article.

That said....have you full thought this through? You can't just "add" a midbass to any system. You need to be able to properly power it, you need to be able to properly limit it's bandwidth with a crossover, you need to have proper placement (as said..midbass shouldn't go behind it), etc etc.

My advice; tell your friend to save up a little bit more and purchase an actual component set and a decent quality external amplifier to power them.

 

[jaygeorge1979 10+ year member]

While I like the article for the fact that it stresses the importance of having adequate midbass drivers to acheive the "impact" and "kick" most people enjoy.....I thoroughly disagree with their idea that they must be in an enclosure, and that the enclosure size is unimportant. That's total hogwash ********, and frankly they need slapped for printing such assinine information.
The enclosure (or lack thereof, as many midbass are designed to operate optimally in an infinite baffle setup) and enclosure size are of utmost importance to good performance. You can not just stick any speaker in any enclosure and expect good results as they portrayed in that article.

That said....have you full thought this through? You can't just "add" a midbass to any system. You need to be able to properly power it, you need to be able to properly limit it's bandwidth with a crossover, you need to have proper placement (as said..midbass shouldn't go behind it), etc etc.

My advice; tell your friend to save up a little bit more and purchase an actual component set and a decent quality external amplifier to power them.

hey squeak, glad you joined my thread //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

first problem is that the stock speakers locations i found were for smaller speakers...in my opinion, too small to produce the midbass he desires even if he upgrades to some nice components...however, my opinion is crap and im probably wrong anyways

as for designing a crossover and proper enclosure size, i planned on creating a crossover that only allowed a narrow bandwidth of freq to come thru (say, 100-500 Hz) seeing as that seems to be what he is really lacking...and for enclosure size, i planned to use winisd to figure out what an acceptable enclosure volume might be...this being said, i dont think designing it would be too difficult

so, have i fully thought this thru? no, i havent...i post so you guys can help me think it thru...tis the beauty of the forum....considering what i said, specifically that i dont know where he would mount a good component set, and that he already has an amp to power some midbass drivers, is it still not a good idea?

keep in mind...i am not disrespecting your advice...it just seems your way may be a little less cost effective to implement...correct me if im wrong

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

first problem is that the stock speakers locations i found were for smaller speakers...in my opinion, too small to produce the midbass he desires even if he upgrades to some nice components...however, my opinion is crap and im probably wrong anyways

What size speakers are stock?

What location?

Enough room to do a small amount of modding and fit larger speakers?

specifically that i dont know where he would mount a good component set,

If you don't know where to mount a component set...how did you plan on mounting the midbass driver? As we all mentioned....it shouldn't go in rear. That really limits your options, and essentially limits them to the same options as the placement of the mid of a component set could go.

it just seems your way may be a little less cost effective to implement...correct me if im wrong

Less cost effective. Yes. But overall better results too. Thinking ahead...upgrading the midbass may present a lack of adequate midrange and treble. So then he'll be wanting to upgrade those aswell. It would be better to just wait a wee bit longer, save up a little more muulah and hit them all in one shot with a decent comp set.

And most car audio component sets are designed to work best IB...so chances are high you can scratch enclosure design/building off of your list of things to do if he went that route aswell.

 

[jaygeorge1979 10+ year member]

What size speakers are stock?
What location?

Enough room to do a small amount of modding and fit larger speakers?

If you don't know where to mount a component set...how did you plan on mounting the midbass driver? As we all mentioned....it shouldn't go in rear. That really limits your options, and essentially limits them to the same options as the placement of the mid of a component set could go.

Less cost effective. Yes. But overall better results too. Thinking ahead...upgrading the midbass may present a lack of adequate midrange and treble. So then he'll be wanting to upgrade those aswell. It would be better to just wait a wee bit longer, save up a little more muulah and hit them all in one shot with a decent comp set.

And most car audio component sets are designed to work best IB...so chances are high you can scratch enclosure design/building off of your list of things to do if he went that route aswell.

the ones in the dash are these lil 3 and a half inch speakers, and there are more speakers in the rear walls but these are in the rear and apparently i definately want midbass drivers in front of me....i am considering finding somewhere to hide them (up under the dash for example, maybe build some kinda kick panels) but if i choose to follow the idea of buying midbass drivers instead of components, i have more installatin options since i dont have to worry so much about imaging...seeing as i am using them for a low and small freq range, their sound should be at least mostly omnidirectional, right? so i should be able to get away with mounting them where they arent facing exactly toward me...at least thats what I think //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif could be wrong...

you say i can scratch enclosure design and building off my list, but if i do that, im gonna have to help him custom cut up the dash to make it big enough for some decent components...maybe i am wrong, but this seems like more work than building a couple small midbass enclosures...especially since the space between the dash and the windshield is really small....

i do understand where u are coming from, and buying a good pair of components would overall lead to his satisfaction down the road, but is it even possible to fit some good 5-6 inch component set in that small dash?

unless we try and build some kick panels, but space is soo limited in that lil sports car, i think it would interfere with legroom

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

What kind of car is this? In most of the vehicles I've dealt with, down in the lower front portion of the door (where most "stock door speaker" locations are), the inner door metal is already non-existant even in cars that didn't have stock door speakers. All I've ever needed to do to drop a component set into the lower front of the doors, when the vehicle didn't have any stock door speakers, was cut away at the door panel and make an MDF baffle for them. Very simple, can be done in an afternoon, and can yield good results sound wise.

About your imaging concerns....even a lot of midrange speakers end up being off-axis, even when in kickpanels (and especially when in stock door locations). Typically when you start off aiming your kicks, most experienced people will tell you to start off aiming both kicks at the back of the HU. Reason for this is that if you try to aim the kicks towards the listeners, then you end up being more off-axis with the far side speaker than the near side speaker....and this can cause some problems with frequency response, intensity differences, etc. So, to cure this, you aim the speakers so that you closer to being evenly off-axis from both of them....so, the aiming may not be all that much more different with a good ole comp set than just a midbass //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif