Ensolite recommended?

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

Here's a question for you foxpro:
How would you go about reducing road noise from the tub and hard top in a Jeep wrangler? Cost is a factor; within reason for the average person.

Asking for my information, not to be a smart *** //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Either CLD mat or a liquid on the roof to reduce structure-borne noise in the sub 250 hz region. Large flat panels act as sound boards that can actually amplify sound forward. Turning this sound into heat is what you're after.

Same thing goes for the floor (not sure what 'tub' is? Spare tire well??), but in this case add a barrier decoupler to block noise transmitted from the road, your exhaust, other cars....that will just go right through those "deadened" panels.

It's all right here: http://www.earsc.com/HOME/engineering/TechnicalWhitePapers/FourFold/index.asp?SID=59

Why aren't professionals that do noise containment for a living using CCF? Where is Ensolite mentioned in that article?? Do the laws of physics change for the vehicle? Who's anecdotal evidence is draining your check book??

 

[ultimate157 5,000+ posts]

Thanks for the link.

The tub is the body, which on a wrangler slightly resembles a bathtub. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Either CLD mat or a liquid on the roof to reduce structure-borne noise in the sub 250 hz region. Large flat panels act as sound boards that can actually amplify sound forward. Turning this sound into heat is what you're after.
Same thing goes for the floor (not sure what 'tub' is? Spare tire well??), but in this case add a barrier decoupler to block noise transmitted from the road, your exhaust, other cars....that will just go right through those "deadened" panels.

It's all right here: http://www.earsc.com/HOME/engineering/TechnicalWhitePapers/FourFold/index.asp?SID=59

Why aren't professionals that do noise containment for a living using CCF? Where is Ensolite mentioned in that article?? Do the laws of physics change for the vehicle? Who's anecdotal evidence is draining your check book??

That article talks alot about absorptive materials. I guess the main question now is, how well is ensolite at absorbing? When used with a rigid barrier material, would it not act as an effective noise absorptive barrier?

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

how well is ensolite at absorbing?

Depends on the 5 factors I listed earlier. You have to wonder, if Ensolite is and used in sports equipment because it's non-porus (impact and water resistant), it's not likely to take on sound. Absorption implies the material has to "take on" sound. The cells are closed. Only thing it can possibly do is diffuse a wave. Absorption is not diffusion, even though all absorbers diffuse - it's just that diffusers are lousy absorbers [think "deflex" pad].

When used with a rigid barrier material, would it not act as an effective noise absorptive barrier?

No. That's not the purpose of the foam in that instance. Really nothing is absorbed in a decoupled barrier, it's refracted [fine, say "blocked"].
Ensolite = shoulder pad, bike pad, etc. Maxi Pad? No.

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

If you want to use these products to block sound, you need to layer them - mat/foam/mat/foam - in the path of the noise. This creates a less effective barrier than 1 lb/ft² MLV or lead and foam, but it is still pretty good - very close to the .5 lb/ft² stuff.

Dangit. So it would have been better to do mat/foam/mat/foam instead of mat/mat/foam/foam?

nG

 

[James Bang 5,000+ posts]

Dangit. So it would have been better to do mat/foam/mat/foam instead of mat/mat/foam/foam?
nG

i would've done the mat/mat/foam way as well. since mat is made to stop resonance, I dont' see the use of putting it on top of foam.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

Depends on the 5 factors I listed earlier. You have to wonder, if Ensolite is and used in sports equipment because it's non-porus (impact and water resistant), it's not likely to take on sound. Absorption implies the material has to "take on" sound. The cells are closed. Only thing it can possibly do is diffuse a wave. Absorption is not diffusion, even though all absorbers diffuse - it's just that diffusers are lousy absorbers [think "deflex" pad].
No. That's not the purpose of the foam in that instance. Really nothing is absorbed in a decoupled barrier, it's refracted [fine, say "blocked"].

Ensolite = shoulder pad, bike pad, etc. Maxi Pad? No.

That suggests an open cell foam would be better at absorbing, as it would allow the sound waves to enter it easier. Makes sense... but wouldn't that also mean its easier for the sound waves to escape as well?
That article talks about using absorptive foam in conjunction with a barrier to alter frequency effects. Clearly they are suggesting there is more to the foam layer than simply as a decoupler.

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

If the purpose of CCF in a barrier composite/system is to add an AIR space for the mass layer to "float" on, how effective would it be to add more air to that space? If you study the STC values of building home or commercial partitions, you'll see that more air = more transmission loss. There will be a point of no return, obviously, because it depends on the mass of the barrier layer and the frequency of the noise you're trying to block. More mass = more blocking (it's logrhythmic, not linear.)

So then if you're adding 1/8" Ensolite (which doesn't absorb because it's non-porous, and doesn't block because it has virtually no mass) to a vehicle you must appreciate it's material properties and use them for what they can physically do. Don't buy snake oil.

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

wouldn't that also mean its easier for the sound waves to escape as well?
That article talks about using absorptive foam in conjunction with a barrier to alter frequency effects. Clearly they are suggesting there is more to the foam layer than simply as a decoupler.

Flow resistance is one of the critical factors on a POROUS absorber.

Adding a film layer to an open matrix yields better NRC figures. But, can you actually hear this in the highway? How about we just block it instead. This, you can hear and feel, I'm 100% sure of it.

 

[Rudy 10+ year member]

Dangit. So it would have been better to do mat/foam/mat/foam instead of mat/mat/foam/foam?
nG

Not for vibration damping. I'm saying that if you have a limited need for a barrier, mat/foam/mat is going to work fairly well - should be roughly comparable to .5 lb/ft² products.

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

Dangit. So it would have been better to do mat/foam/mat/foam instead of mat/mat/foam/foam?
nG

Mat/CCF/mass/OCF = damped decoupled barrier absorber. Focal Blackhole 5 [awaits small monetary compensation from Jacq Mahul]

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

Not for vibration damping. I'm saying that if you have a limited need for a barrier, mat/foam/mat is going to work fairly well - should be roughly comparable to .b lb/ft² products.

Not even close, Don. And I can spray my front door and my back door with hose and record it if need be. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Guys, all you have to do is weigh the materials. If you think you're above Mass Law, then you're sorely mistaken. The article I posted shows this.

 

[Rudy 10+ year member]

Not even close, Don. And I can spray my front door and my back door with hose and record it if need be. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif
Guys, all you have to do is weigh the materials. If you think you're above Mass Law, then you're sorely mistaken. The article I posted shows this.

So a .5 lb/ft² layer of mat on top of foam is going to be very different than a .5 lb/ft² layer of MLV on top of foam? Sounds extremely close to me. Maybe you alone are above the mass law?

 

[ngsm13 5,000+ posts]

What are your thoughts on CAE's...

VB2-HD

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=268-268

or

VB4.5

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=268-274

nG

 

[FoxPro5 5,000+ posts]

So a .5 lb/ft² layer of mat on top of foam is going to be very different than a .5 lb/ft² layer of MLV on top of foam? Sounds extremely close to me. Maybe you alone are above the mass law?

No, you're right. I thought you implied the 1 lb/sqft mass loaded materials. Maybe you've never installed a barrier in a car???????????????

Either way, price out your mats and your foams. Go shopping at HD for stuff. Then see if you can get below the cost of a barrier decoupler mat all ready glued together for you and ready to do. If you can, great. I did it, but it's a PITA.