ARC audio FD vs. JBL GTO

[Johnny Drama 5,000+ posts]

Yes you will be able to distinguish depending on the specs of the GTO vs. FD. I thing you got a little outta hand with the !!!!'s....LOL...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Care to put money on it? I bet that you wouldnt be able to distinguish between the two in a blind test.

Two amps that are both higher end that have similar specs...no way in hell you could point the arc out everytime.

 

[crxsir121 10+ year member]

please, in your own justification let us all know why each one of those things make an amp better?

I hope this helps. Zapco explains it better than I do. One of the reasons why they are some of the best amps you can buy. Very expensive, but you get what you pay for and their amp specs speak for themelves. Desgned by Robert Zeff, one of the best amp designers...

Damping Factor:

The most common misconception about ZAPCO amps is that we

drastically under-rate our power output. Not true, it just sounds that way.

Today’s music, of all styles, has a great deal of bass content. Damping

describes an amps ability to control a woofer. An amp with poor damping

will leave bass notes sounding soft and undefined, regardless of its power.

In most amp lines, the largest units have damping factors between 200

and 400. In the ZAPCO Competition series, our smallest amp has

dampening of over 875. Since rock solid bass is perceived as a function of

power, our 100 watt amp sounds like other companies’ 300 watt amps.

· Slew Rate:

A similar situation exists in the higher frequencies. Ever turn up the

volume and hear cymbals sounding like finger-nails on a blackboard?

That’s because the amplifier simply wasn’t fast enough to accurately

reproduce the high frequency ring of the cymbals. A higher slew rate

means a faster amp, which means crystal clear highs. ZAPCO amps have

the highest slew rates in the industry. Once again, clear defined, sound is

perceived as a function of power. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif

· Signal to Noise Ratio:

Noise is an ever-present problem in auto-sound reproduction. ZAPCO

approaches this problem in two ways. First, is at the input source. Our

amps can all use the SymbiLinkä balance line inputs, which drastically

reduce the noise coming into the amp. Secondly, ZAPCO amps are built

with the highest quality, lowest noise components available. We have the

highest signal to noise ratios in the industry. The extra money we spend

on better components is directly rewarded with better sound.

10

· Stereo Separation:

The ability of an amplifier to maintain the separation between the right

and left channels is what allows an amp to reproduce an accurate sound

stage. Music is recorded with each instrument in its own location in the

sound stage. You should hear it the same way.

 

[crxsir121 10+ year member]

Thats why I said depending on specs. I did never doubt the GTO's was less of a amp then FD's.

Care to put money on it? I bet that you wouldnt be able to distinguish between the two in a blind test.
Two amps that are both higher end that have similar specs...no way in hell you could point the arc out everytime.

 

[Johnny Drama 5,000+ posts]

Thats why I said depending on specs. I did never doubt the GTO's was less of a amp then FD's.

Then why spend the money basted on the factors you posted vs. the ones Squeak posted? To be an elitest? No thanks...

 

[negativezeroz 5,000+ posts]

JBL ftw

 

[crxsir121 10+ year member]

Then why spend the money basted on the factors you posted vs. the ones Squeak posted? To be an elitest? No thanks...

This is only my opinon as stated in my post above. Do as you please. Its your money. I was only trying to help...I'm sure both amps are awesome. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Damping Factor:

The most common misconception about ZAPCO amps is that we

drastically under-rate our power output. Not true, it just sounds that way.

Today’s music, of all styles, has a great deal of bass content. Damping

describes an amps ability to control a woofer. An amp with poor damping

will leave bass notes sounding soft and undefined, regardless of its power.

In most amp lines, the largest units have damping factors between 200

and 400. In the ZAPCO Competition series, our smallest amp has

dampening of over 875. Since rock solid bass is perceived as a function of

power, our 100 watt amp sounds like other companies’ 300 watt amps.

DF is not a spec where higher is inherently better. DF in general is hugely overrated as a specification worthy of interest. There is a limit to the ability of the DF to affect the sonic characteristics of an amplifier. Which, in the case of solid state amplifiers, virtually every amplifier produced will have an adequate enough damping factor as to not affect the sonics. One notable exception to this is the Phass amplifier [can't recall the exact model], which had an intentionally low DF of around .2 (yes, two tenths). Beyond that and true tube amps (not hybrids, which only have tubes on the input stage) which have very high output impedances.....DF should not even be a consideration when choosing an amplifier.

The DF is not going to cause a Zapco 100w amp to "sound like other companies 300w amps".....that is just plain bogus.

Slew Rate:

A similar situation exists in the higher frequencies. Ever turn up the

volume and hear cymbals sounding like finger-nails on a blackboard?

That’s because the amplifier simply wasn’t fast enough to accurately

reproduce the high frequency ring of the cymbals. A higher slew rate

means a faster amp, which means crystal clear highs. ZAPCO amps have

the highest slew rates in the industry. Once again, clear defined, sound is

perceived as a function of power. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif

As with DF, slew rate is again a spec in which higher is not inherently better. There is, again, a limit to the slew rate which will affect the sonics of an amplifier. If the slew rate is above the necessary value, then no sonic differences will occur. And this is, again, not a hard task to accomplish and most any modern amplifier should have sufficient slew rate (except for possibly dedicated sub amps which are intentionally bandwidth limited)

Signal to Noise Ratio:
Noise is an ever-present problem in auto-sound reproduction. ZAPCO

approaches this problem in two ways. First, is at the input source. Our

amps can all use the SymbiLinkä balance line inputs, which drastically

reduce the noise coming into the amp. Secondly, ZAPCO amps are built

with the highest quality, lowest noise components available. We have the

highest signal to noise ratios in the industry. The extra money we spend

on better components is directly rewarded with better sound.

The balanced signal is a great way to avoid induced noise from entering the signal path. No doubt about it.

However, not every system suffers from having noise induced into the signal cables....and for someone running digital to a trunk mounted processor (such as the original poster may given he has the H701) it would offer no real value.

And, like I said......I have yet to have any noise floor issues with my GTO amplifier. So, while Zapco (and Arc) do use very high quality components.....I really don't see how there is any value added for the extra cost given the other option likewise has a more than adequately low noise floor.

Stereo Separation:

The ability of an amplifier to maintain the separation between the right

and left channels is what allows an amp to reproduce an accurate sound

stage. Music is recorded with each instrument in its own location in the

sound stage. You should hear it the same way.

The stereo separation has to be ridiculously low to alter the sound of the amplifier. With todays technology, this really is not a difficult task to accomplish and this worry of "bleeding" between channels within an amplifier is virtually nonexistant. It may occur on a minor scale given nothing is perfect...but nothing audible or to concern yourself with.

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Lizardking 10+ year member]

To me all those specs are BS.....Just like how someone can hear differences between XXK's, SE's and Zapco Competitions and References......man people are suckers....or they just have to justify to make themselves feel better. Car audio is like computer nerds and upgrading their processors and video cards all the **** time.......

 

[3.5Max6spd 10+ year member]

To me all those specs are BS.....Just like how someone can hear differences between XXK's, SE's and Zapco Competitions and References......man people are suckers....or they just have to justify to make themselves feel better. Car audio is like computer nerds and upgrading their processors and video cards all the **** time.......

Are you a sucker as well? You had noise floor that your balanced Zapcos introduced(although Symbilinks 'superior' noise rejection was a selling point, no?). Nothing your Zapco dealer, nor any amp they sent you worked fine. But you did a simple amp switch to Arc XXK's and standard RCA's and your noise was gone //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Yet you go back to the Zapco forum and the zapco trolls refuse to validate YOUR experience.

This is not an Amp A is better than Amp B argument. But rather a point that it comes down to the individuals preference, and one cannot argue another mans experience in his car, his equipment, his install, his ears.... Nor should any others experience have an effect on your own. Experience for yourself.

I have put a C2k on my frontage, auditioned it...tuned with it...listened to it on my cal28's, then on my usher midranges, heck even on a passive professional set for many hours. Did just about everything but wipe my *** with it before I sold it in little over a month. Why? There was no audible noise floor differences after dumping $100 just to run symbilink. At half the price I went back to an amplifier that surprsingly had a more bite on the top end and no proprietary cables.

The DLS experience was very different. Smooth and warm is not 'supernatural sound' IMO, and it should'nt be coming from an amplifier. My midbass turned into mush, my midrange was mellowed out. It colored my music. It made something real sound sugar coated. Nice amplifier, just not for me.

Give me tight midbass, unobstructed midrange resolution and clear top end- and leave the fancy integrated chips in the opamps/ Burr Brown chips for the birds. I want to amplify my source, i want to amplify the earthiness of the human voice and instruments. I prefer to leave tonality and presentation to tuning and speaker selection. Like Rob Zeff wrote in his 'Anatomy of an Amplifier' article..."The musicians and their instruments are supposed to have "the sound", not audio equipment! "

The main difference between the ARC FD's and the JBL is....SUBSTANCE- Which is what costs MONEY. FD's are bipolar designs, JBL are mosfet designs.

*Bipolar Transistors are more money than MOsfets.

*It takes more bipolars to achieve same power as MOSFETS

*Bipolars are more LINEAR devices than mOsfets

*MOSFETs are very non-linear, compared to Bipolars and require much more feedback to achieve reasonable distortion numbers

*FD's use high end Sanken transistors and other 1% tolerance parts.

* All the 'specs' people want to argue dont make a difference, are a result of design and parts used. And exist in numbers, whether the argument if its audible or not matters. Its a measurable difference in the performance of a piece of electronics.

So my point to the poster, if you willing to buy a better grade amplifier and can afford to, go with the FD's. If not, the JBL is a solid amplifier for the $ and the user feedback is great. My good friend runs the JBL crown amps on his Iridium 6.3's for a few years now and they are great performers withouht a doubt. I have no problem recommending them.

 

[explorer2 10+ year member]

Correct me if I am wrong but doesnt Zeff design amps for arc now? JBL and ARc both make great products, the biggest difference is that they are being sold to different markets, with maybe the exception of the crown amps.

 

[Towncar 10+ year member]

edit

 

[Lizardking 10+ year member]

Are you a sucker as well? You had noise floor that your balanced Zapcos introduced(although Symbilinks 'superior' noise rejection was a selling point, no?). Nothing your Zapco dealer, nor any amp they sent you worked fine. But you did a simple amp switch to Arc XXK's and standard RCA's and your noise was gone //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif Yet you go back to the Zapco forum and the zapco trolls refuse to validate YOUR experience.
This is not an Amp A is better than Amp B argument. But rather a point that it comes down to the individuals preference, and one cannot argue another mans experience in his car, his equipment, his install, his ears.... Nor should any others experience have an effect on your own. Experience for yourself.

I have put a C2k on my frontage, auditioned it...tuned with it...listened to it on my cal28's, then on my usher midranges, heck even on a passive professional set for many hours. Did just about everything but wipe my *** with it before I sold it in little over a month. Why? There was no audible noise floor differences after dumping $100 just to run symbilink. At half the price I went back to an amplifier that surprsingly had a more bite on the top end and no proprietary cables.

The DLS experience was very different. Smooth and warm is not 'supernatural sound' IMO, and it should'nt be coming from an amplifier. My midbass turned into mush, my midrange was mellowed out. It colored my music. It made something real sound sugar coated. Nice amplifier, just not for me.

Give me tight midbass, unobstructed midrange resolution and clear top end- and leave the fancy integrated chips in the opamps/ Burr Brown chips for the birds. I want to amplify my source, i want to amplify the earthiness of the human voice and instruments. I prefer to leave tonality and presentation to tuning and speaker selection. Like Rob Zeff wrote in his 'Anatomy of an Amplifier' article..."The musicians and their instruments are supposed to have "the sound", not audio equipment! "

The main difference between the ARC FD's and the JBL is....SUBSTANCE- Which is what costs MONEY. FD's are bipolar designs, JBL are mosfet designs.

*Bipolar Transistors are more money than MOsfets.

*It takes more bipolars to achieve same power as MOSFETS

*Bipolars are more LINEAR devices than mOsfets

*MOSFETs are very non-linear, compared to Bipolars and require much more feedback to achieve reasonable distortion numbers

*FD's use high end Sanken transistors and other 1% tolerance parts.

* All the 'specs' people want to argue dont make a difference, are a result of design and parts used. And exist in numbers, whether the argument if its audible or not matters. Its a measurable difference in the performance of a piece of electronics.

So my point to the poster, if you willing to buy a better grade amplifier and can afford to, go with the FD's. If not, the JBL is a solid amplifier for the $ and the user feedback is great. My good friend runs the JBL crown amps on his Iridium 6.3's for a few years now and they are great performers withouht a doubt. I have no problem recommending them.

I went with Zapco's two years ago because of what I heard about them. I tried the reference line and the competition line with NO audible difference. Your right the Arc's did clear up the noise floor issue.... I wonder why??? I could upgrade to the SE's but why? No difference. The Zapco clan won't admit they have issues.....why would they? That Robert over there. By the way Arc Audio admitted that they have noise floor issues too.....I still have the email....from Brad....if you want it.

 

[tukn18s 10+ year member]

you guys can continue to talk about this stuff, its interesting to read, but ive decided on the JBL power series amps, if they dont do the trick, then I will continue to upgrade just like i've done since i started in this crazy addiction of car audio 3 years ago (I am only 19) lol. I think I have gone through nearly 6 systems, and those were all in my s-10, the ***** am I am going to try to do it right the first time (right enough for me) and if it doesnt work the way I want it to, then upgrade some more. I doubt I will be dissapointed with the JBL amps, they seem very durable, have good ratings as far as power, and I think they will fit in with what I want perfectly, dont look too bad either. Both amps seem to be top notch, maybe the arc more so for sure, but I am sure it will provide me with what I need, thanks for all the input it was very helpful!

Kenny

 

[blue 10+ year member]

Well, lets look at the important differences;
Power; Which option will give you more power ?

Distortion; Both are going to have inaudibly low distortion. So this isn't a consideration.

Noise; From personal experience running a GTO 75.4II in my own car, it has a very low noise floor. I haven't gave it the two IASCA tracks yet...but audibly from the drivers seat w/ music (and in between tracks, at low/no volume, etc) I hear no noise floor. So this isn't really a consideration, IMO.

Frequency response; Any frequency response deviations will be minor at worst. And given you plan to run the H701, you have more than adequate equalizer abilities to adjust the frequency response if need be. Heck, lets face it, you'll be heavily equalizing the response regardless of amplifier....we're talking about putting a system in a car here. So this isn't really a concern.

Cosmetics; Which do you prefer cosmetically ?

Features; Given you are going to be running the H701 (from your previous postings), things like crossover features shouldn't really be important to you. But, does either one possess a feature you need or desire that the other lacks ?

Build Quality; I've only had my GTO a short period of time, but have yet to have any major problems other than the mounting feet are a little flimsy...but I've yet to hear many (or any, really) complaints about GTO failures. And, as we all know, Arc builds rock solid amplifiers. So, while I don't presume there will be any problems with either.....given Arcs slightly higher price point I can only presume build quality would be comparable at worst, or (and maybe more likely) slightly better than the GTO (though like I said....I wouldn't expect any problems from the GTO).

Customer Support; I don't think you'll hear anyone disagree that Arc provides nothing but top notch support. I once e-mailed Arc to find out about direct pricing on some subwoofers mid-day on a Sunday...and not even 2 hours later I had a response. On a Sunday!! I don't hear much mentioned about JBL either way....so I'm presuming there is nothing really displeasing to say about it. Harmon group does have a pretty good representation over on carsound though. So I wouldn't expect any problems with JBL.

So....after all of that....IMO I think, product wise, it really comes down to power, features and cosmetics. Which has the most power. Which has the features you need/desire. And which has the cosmetics you desire.

Then you have the secondary things to consider, such as customer support.

But in the end.....get whichever product makes you happy. If you really want the Arc.....don't short change yourself. By all means, get the Arc.

If you are on a smaller budget, or think your money might be used more effectively in another aspect of your install/stereo, or just plain don't feel like spending the money....there really isn't that much that you would be sacrificing by going with the JBL.

This may just be the most hilarious post I have ever read on these forums !! //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif :laugh: //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

Go ahead and compare a Ferrari and a Volkswagon .... They both will get you where you want to go //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

You have tin ears Squeak //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[blue 10+ year member]

PS : Can someone please tell me exactly just what a " spec " sounds like ?? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif