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[idiot 10+ year member]

The one's who are spreading the lie that Iraqi's don't want us over there. Now I know you have Dan have gone through many rounds on the whole media bias topic, and I thought Dan provided extensive and conclusive evidence that it does exist. Once he's done with the meeting he's in, I will mention this thread to him. I'm sure he will clear it up for you.

Actually, someone else brought up the media bias issue. And my conflict was with the manner in which they had painted the entire media as leaning to the extreme left. I’ve never met an unbiased reporter (and I doubt I ever will on the issue of politics), and my only complaint on this issue was with the depiction of a wholly liberal media. Bias on both sides has been demonstrated.

BTW Idiot, we may not agree on political and religious views; but I just wanted to say that I do have a lot of respect for you. I really enjoy reading your debates with Dan as I think you provide very good, well thought out arguments. I'm not saying they are right, but they are well played by you. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/toast.gif.bc0657bf54b9ee653b6438524461341e.gif
Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Thank you. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif In fact, I enjoy debating with Mr. Wiggins. However, his replies are often quite intimidating in length, so that I generally loose stamina midway through a topic. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif I only have access to a computer several hours a night, but I try to jump in whenever I’m able.

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

I’ll get a post in before the topic is either closed or pruned.


This could be argued using semantics as a shield, however. UN Resolution 1441 never expressly condoned war as an enforcement mechanism, and so the whole of the Security Council did not endorse such an action prior to the conflict. Therefore, the war was a unilateral effort, without the UN’s backing. And so, from the UN’s perspective, it was indeed illegal. This would be an unimportant point, since the UN decries all kinds of global actions that it does not have the jurisdiction to stop, except that Bush clearly invoked Hussein’s past violations of UN resolutions as one of his initial reasons for invasion. The act of justifying the war using an organization that finds the conflict itself illegal was not one of this administration’s strongest arguments.

We are following our obligations to the UN. They may cast votes, make decisions based on their perspectives, but we are not sworn to abide by their decisions. The UN is a loose consolidation, none of its members abide by their edicts strictly, none of them. The UN does not dictate U.S. foreign policy anymore than it does for France, Russia, etc. The UN does not always have the U.S. best interests at heart, that is why we have our own govt.

But if you want to talk about the UN, even the UN cant make up its own mind. Its true the UN did not condone this war, but it did set up a system of rules, that Iraq clearly violated. And the UN did not have a solid plan in the event Hussein wouldn't play fair (*gasp*). In essence, the UN told Iraq 'do this or else', except there was no or else. So the U.S., due to 9/11 and other political and non political reasons, became the 'or else'. If the U.S. hadn't done something, who would have? A UN peacekeeping force? C'mon.

The U.S. is the big kid on the block right now, and that does come with its disadvantages. Sometimes the big kid is lead into fights he didn't want in the first place, just because he's the big kid.

 

[idiot 10+ year member]

We are following our obligations to the UN. They may cast votes, make decisions based on their perspectives, but we are not sworn to abide by their decisions. The UN is a loose consolidation, none of its members abide by their edicts strictly, none of them. The UN does not dictate U.S. foreign policy anymore than it does for France, Russia, etc. The UN does not always have the U.S. best interests at heart, that is why we have our own govt.
But if you want to talk about the UN, even the UN cant make up its own mind. Its true the UN did not condone this war, but it did set up a system of rules, that Iraq clearly violated. And the UN did not have a solid plan in the event Hussein wouldn't play fair (*gasp*). In essence, the UN told Iraq 'do this or else', except there was no or else. So the U.S., due to 9/11 and other political and non political reasons, became the 'or else'. If the U.S. hadn't done something, who would have? A UN peacekeeping force? C'mon.

The U.S. is the big kid on the block right now, and that does come with its disadvantages. Sometimes the big kid is lead into fights he didn't want in the first place, just because he's the big kid.

I’m not disagreeing that the UN is nearly an ineffectual organization. The worst they can do to any violators of their regulations is nag incessantly. I was merely saying that they viewed the war as illegal, in reference to the specific regulation in question, and to their charter, which opposes the unilateral action of member states when acting under the banner of the entire UN.

As I said, this is largely a semantic point. But I think that the issue of illegality begs a semantic consideration, since it is such an ambiguous term. Does it refer to religious or moral laws? Domestic ones? International? In this case, it refers to the “law” of the UN. And obviously, not all are granted equal authority over our president’s actions.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Sure if you listen to the liberal media and ignore the many accounts from troops that were over there that seem to contradict that claim.
And sure some liberal hypocrites agree with it. But that doesn't make them right.

And there enlies the problem. Notice that it says "unlawful". The actions by President Bush were just following up on sanctions imposed on Iraq. Also note that it says "threatened". So is the UN and Clinton terrorists as well since they were the one who threatened these actions? President Bush just initiated those threats when Iraq didn't follow through. Of course it is a Republican administration that took action, so of course it was wrong. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

Actually, it was NOT, even in the slightest bit endorsed by the UN, as well as the majority of the rest of the world. There's a rather large difference between sanctions and invading a sovereign nation. If you can't see the distinction, my condolences.
I never said it was wrong because he was a republican, no need to be illogical and irrational and make a strawman out of my argument. Come on Stephen, keep it above the 3rd grade reasoning level.

Lastly, the "media" is neither conservative or liberal as a whole. To just label all "media" as conservative or liberal is just plain idiotic, and not the least bit accurate. There are plenty of conservative, as well as liberal news organizations. No need to make broad sweeping generelizations which have little to no similarity to reality.

 

[Steven Kephart 10+ year member]

Actually, someone else brought up the media bias issue. And my conflict was with the manner in which they had painted the entire media as leaning to the extreme left. I’ve never met an unbiased reporter (and I doubt I ever will on the issue of politics), and my only complaint on this issue was with the depiction of a wholly liberal media. Bias on both sides has been demonstrated.

Oh definitely. I would definitely not call CBN liberal. And I know that Fox News is a little more conservitave. I was talking about those that were making that statement, which are the liberal media groups.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

 

[davesexplorer 10+ year member]

... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif ..... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/popcorn.gif.32dd9e22fd77e77bc3c907062768fcd2.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/thumbsup.gif.3287b36ca96645a13a43aff531f37f02.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/patriotic.gif.b47a6e0394a3738334c387bdf79409f4.gif

 

[Steven Kephart 10+ year member]

Actually, it was NOT, even in the slightest bit endorsed by the UN, as well as the majority of the rest of the world.

I never said it was endorsed by them. I was saying we were acting on those sanctions put in place by them and were ignored. As Idiot (I believe) said, we were the "or else". But even still, that does not make it a terrorist act.

I never said it was wrong because he was a republican, no need to be illogical and irrational and make a strawman out of my argument. Come on Stephen, keep it above the 3rd grade reasoning level.

I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was talking about the liberals who are now against the war just because of political reasons. You know, the same one's who were for the war in the beginning (Kerry, Clinton, Gore, etc.) but now have their own agenda's and therefore are claiming this rubbish.

Lastly, the "media" is neither conservative or liberal as a whole. To just label all "media" as conservative or liberal is just plain idiotic, and not the least bit accurate. There are plenty of conservative, as well as liberal news organizations. No need to make broad sweeping generelizations which have little to no similarity to reality.

Where in that quote did I say the whole media is liberal? I was identifying a group in the media. So if I say "defective subs", does that mean all subs are defective?

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

I never said it was endorsed by them. I was saying we were acting on those sanctions put in place by them and were ignored. As Idiot (I believe) said, we were the "or else". But even still, that does not make it a terrorist act.


I wasn't talking about you specifically. I was talking about the liberals who are now against the war just because of political reasons. You know, the same one's who were for the war in the beginning (Kerry, Clinton, Gore, etc.) but now have their own agenda's and therefore are claiming this rubbish.

Where in that quote did I say the whole media is liberal? I was identifying a group in the media. So if I say "defective subs", does that mean all subs are defective?

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio

We'll chalk up that last one to misunderstanding, but calling the media liberal is so common it's a cliche.
You and I both know there are no shortage of theories about a "liberal media conspiracy".

With regard to the actual point, you needn't consult our troops nor "the liberal media" to arrive at the conclusion that many thousands of Iraq citizens think Bush is a terrorist. You should take note that there are THOUSANDS of US Troops who are NOT satisfied with the way the administration has handled the war.

If you think most of them are happy our troops are there, you are sorrowfully mistaken...

Iraq certainly wasn't the picture of serenity, and I'm not claiming it was. Saddam Hussein undeniably killed many of his people in barbaric ways, but that doesn't give us the right to simply invade them.

As for your Bill Clinton comment earlier, he screwed up and killed his fair share of civilians from botched cruise missile and bombing attacks as well.

People seem to forget that precise weapons still miss, and even if they hit their target, they can still kill a large number of civilians.

This needn't become some oversimplified dichotomy. I don't agree with many things democrats say and do, just as I don't agree with many things that the republicans say and do.

Our current political system contributes to this common tendency of dichotimizing things that ought not to be dichotomies, and is one of the primary reasons why we have so many disenfranchised voters today. We live in the tyranny of a two party system.

To put it very simply: Just because I am very much not a republican, does not make me a democrat. Simply because I am not a theist, does not make me an atheist...

For the record, the candidate I most liked was Kucinich, not Kerry...

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

With regard to the actual point, you needn't consult our troops nor "the liberal media" to arrive at the conclusion that many thousands of Iraq citizens think Bush is a terrorist. You should take note that there are THOUSANDS of US Troops who are NOT satisfied with the way the administration has handled the war.

There are thousands of Iraq citizens that think Bush is the devil himself, does that make it also true? Since when does some of the troops being dissatisfied mean we should do a policy change?

You are being very sensitive not to calling the media liberal, yet you are calling the president a terrorist. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cop.gif.57eb2cc10a7efd04d31083ca3c30d53c.gif

The 'liberal press' is a term I think use to fit much more than it does today. The days before so many cable news options, FOXNews, etc, the media did tend to slant to the left. Its natural, people want to read about the touchy feely aspects of a situation, want to read about the plight of deserving people and our attempt as a society to save them, want to read about the little guy taking on the big bad corporation and winning, etc. But today's media outlets have too much competition to not offer programs and channels slanted both ways.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

This forum is the king of dragging threads off topic......but I never would have guessed that it would have turned this far off...............gotta love election year

 

[audioholic 5,000+ posts]

There's an election this year?

 

[ss3079 5,000+ posts]

There's an election this year?

What's an election? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

- Steve

 

[BulldogSr04 10+ year member]

Was there any mention of prices? I didn't read the whole thing. Will they be the same or cheaper?

Ahem //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smash.gif.499e08a4a35ffaf54f4c8194fb8fe8ed.gif

 

[supa_c 5,000+ posts]

Steven whats your email ?

i wanted to ask you a Q but i forgot your address //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

 

[Steven Kephart 10+ year member]

Steven whats your email ?i wanted to ask you a Q but i forgot your address //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif

skephart@adireaudio.com If I am the Steve you are refering too.

Steven Kephart

Adire Audio