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[DanWiggins 10+ year member]

Audioholic posted:

But I disagree that the cause of the outsourcing is due to the consumers. The blame shouldn't be put on the consumer for not chosing the more expensive product simply because its made here, it is human nature to chose the best bargain. The problem is in the fact that the product made here is in fact more expensive. Especially considering the overseas product had to have the shipping cost added in, and is still competitive in price with the local product. Im not an economist to explain why American labor is so much higher, but I assume it has to do with variances in world currencies and local cost of living prices.

Cost of living has a lot to do with it, of course. However, why not buy a Zapco amp, rather than a JBL BP1200.1? Price. The Zapco is entirely made in the USA; the JBL is made in China. There's a reason JBL probably sold 100 1200.1s for every Zapco sold... Consumers do shop by price!
Warbleed posted:

I only view outsourcing as a negative when we're talking the "wipe out the local economy of a town to move to mexico, despite record profits". That's when outsourcing is bad, and it isn't the outsourcing that's the problem in that case, it's greedy ****in people.

EXACTLY. I probably blew off too hard, but it really irks me when people talk about outsourcing as a bad thing. Heck, if I hadn't start CAC, I couldn't have hired John, Scott, or Shea. Three new jobs created in the US that would NOT have existed if I didn't start CAC.
Jack Frost posted:

any Ford drivers here? think your Ford is made in the US of A? sad, but true...

1999 Ford Ranger - built in Louisville, KY

2001 Ford Taurus - built in Chicago, IL

1963 Mercury Comet - built in Los Angeles, CA

Some are made in Mexico or Canada; most are made in the US.

Audioholic posted:

IMO the solution is exactly what you are doing at Adire, creating the jobs in this country that are skilled, while utilizing the low labor costs of another economy for the low skilled jobs. Automation is another possible solution, on a case by case basis.

Thank you. That is my take on it too. You use the labor force that is best suited for the job. In this case, engineering/technical in the US, most assembly/parts in South America. Some assembly will be done in the US, too; just most of the "straightforward" stuff done down there.
Idiot posted:

Whether this is the fault of Labor Unions continuously marching for higher salaries here, long-standing governmental policies that offer tax breaks to manufacturers who locate operations overseas, or any other factor that I’m either too lazy to list or just not aware of, is certainly covered in my initial response.

Actually, there aren't any government policies that offer tax breaks for overseas operations. None. This is a big lie perpetrated by the Democratic party and labor unions. There are actually tax LIABILITIES for implementing overseas.
Labor unions are a large part of it. I've met with steel foundry workers from South Korea and from the US. Guess what? The South Korean earns TWICE what the US individual does. Of course, he sits in an air conditioned office overseeing 4 fully automated forges; the US foundries each have 6 guys working each manually operated forge. And as a result it is cheaper to mine the ore here, ship to South Korea, refine, forge, and ship back to the US, by 50% or more.

The reason we can't automate much of the steel (or other strongly unionized industries) market is because of the labor unions. Yes, they would lose 75% of their members. But with the stance they take now, we're going to lose 100%...

If the consumer demands a product three-quarters of the price of an American-made one with the label “Made in Chile” slapped on the side, that is principally the fault of the U.S. labor sector for making jobs in this country so expensive; but this is due largely to our strong economy, and as such, its just not conceivable for U.S. workers to labor for sweatshop wages (not that I’m insinuating that you’re building a Chilean sweatshop… I’m referring more to the stereotypical conception of Chinese labor). Part of that is social, I would imagine, and the rest is due to the current political and economic structure.

It's also due to what the US considers the minimum standard of living. In most developed countries (EU members, etc) houses are smaller, there are fewer TVs, fewer microwaves, etc. The cost of product is higher. Including car stereo. We expect - in fact economically demand - more for our dollar, and accumulate much more as well. This is not inherently bad! But it can be blinding to the economics that flow from such decisions.
I know this isn't a popular topic, but based on my 12 years of selling equipment here and abroad the US consumer is hyper-sensitive to price. Products that will sell fine in Germany, Japan, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, etc. will fail in the US, simply because of price. The American consumer expects a LOT more for their dollar than most consumers world-wide, and will 99 times out of 100 vote with their pocketbook. This is true not only in consumer electronics (like car stereo), but high end scientific systems, contract design work, etc.

Again, Idiot, this is not directed at you, just general statements about economic realities. Now, please do NOT think I am criticizing the US consumer! Absolutely not. Inherently there is nothing wrong with expecting more for your money. But to - at the same time - complain about the loss of lower wage US jobs to overseas markets really shows to me a fundamental lack of understanding about basic economics. It's like a person going to the $0.99 cent window at Wendy's, ordering burgers for all their friends, and decrying the low wages paid to fry cooks...

Oh, and 500%? More models. Number produced will be much higher...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Dan Wiggins

Adire Audio

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Why is it my post was deleted, which was defending Adire's choice of action, but yet the entire last page (and the beginning of page 3) was completely about the same topic as my deleted post?

 

[idiot 10+ year member]

Actually, there aren't any government policies that offer tax breaks for overseas operations. None. This is a big lie perpetrated by the Democratic party and labor unions. There are actually tax LIABILITIES for implementing overseas.

Factcheck.org disagrees with you. It’s hardly a democratic lie, and has been in existence for a long while. However, I do agree with their assessment that outsourcing accounts for a very small percentage of U.S. unemployment (I’ve always held that long-term unemployment is more a problem of will, in most cases), and that these tax breaks are far from the main reason that companies make the decision to outsource jobs. As for the tax liabilities you mentioned, you’ll have to explain those to me, since I’ve read no reports one way or the other. It might be interesting if the tax breaks mentioned below are imposed in order to offset any tax liabilities incurred by outsourcing.

Link

Kerry is correct when he says the US tax code creates an incentive to move jobs overseas. But that's not Bush's fault, as Kerry and his supporters often say.
In fact, tax experts say the incentive has been there for decades - since there has been a corporate income tax. It's not Bush's doing.

The incentive exists because the US taxes corporations at rates higher than most other countries. According to the Institute for International Economics, the effective rate for US corporations was just over 30% in 2002, while mainland China's effective corporate rate was only 11.3%, Britain's 18.2%, Mexico's 15.1% and Indonesia's a miniscule 0.2%.

Furthermore, the US also attempts to tax money that US-based companies earn in other countries, but only after those profits are brought back to the US. That means profits that remain overseas, perhaps invested in new factories in low-tax countries, never get taxed at the higher US rates. And that's been true through both Democratic and Republican administrations.

Even the Institute for International Economics, which disagrees with Kerry's tax proposal, acknowledges he is correct that the current system is unfair.

It's also due to what the US considers the minimum standard of living. In most developed countries (EU members, etc) houses are smaller, there are fewer TVs, fewer microwaves, etc. The cost of product is higher. Including car stereo. We expect - in fact economically demand - more for our dollar, and accumulate much more as well. This is not inherently bad! But it can be blinding to the economics that flow from such decisions.
I know this isn't a popular topic, but based on my 12 years of selling equipment here and abroad the US consumer is hyper-sensitive to price. Products that will sell fine in Germany, Japan, Italy, Australia, New Zealand, etc. will fail in the US, simply because of price. The American consumer expects a LOT more for their dollar than most consumers world-wide, and will 99 times out of 100 vote with their pocketbook. This is true not only in consumer electronics (like car stereo), but high end scientific systems, contract design work, etc.

Exactly.

Again, Idiot, this is not directed at you, just general statements about economic realities. Now, please do NOT think I am criticizing the US consumer! Absolutely not. Inherently there is nothing wrong with expecting more for your money. But to - at the same time - complain about the loss of lower wage US jobs to overseas markets really shows to me a fundamental lack of understanding about basic economics. It's like a person going to the $0.99 cent window at Wendy's, ordering burgers for all their friends, and decrying the low wages paid to fry cooks...

There’s no hypocrisy on my part. As I’ve said before, I have bought products manufactured by outsourcing on many occasions (including a Zapco amp made in Korea, actually), and will continue to do so. I never intended to take up a holier-than-thou tone or insinuate that I, as a consumer, have done anything but perpetuate the drive for businesses to outsource certain positions in manufacturing.

Oh, and 500%? More models. Number produced will be much higher...//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Care to drop a few hints? I did notice that the Parthenon link appeared on the site’s side menu earlier this week. Any plans to produce something using that little blessing of engineering? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[DBfan187 5,000+ posts]

Good luck AA.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

Why is it my post was deleted, which was defending Adire's choice of action, but yet the entire last page (and the beginning of page 3) was completely about the same topic as my deleted post?

I don't see anything in the deleted section.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/help.gif.cee8f684da1ba626487a8bc51152e1ec.gif

 

[mrray13 10+ year member]

thumbs up to adire and cac......i think this will go far for ur companies....

btw...i like my new job...we are the sole proprietary suppliers for some specific ammo..hehe..

wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/peace.gif.2db28b618ed8d1964ebbe2f5021d2c39.gif

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

I think I receieved an email from CAC the other day abotu this

 

[ss3079 5,000+ posts]

I just want to see the new stuff //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif

- Steve

 

[audiolife 5,000+ posts]

about 90% of anything audio related as a whole is outsourced to some extent or another be it the parts to some of the assembly or even the whole things. most smaller companies engineer it then approach a manufacturer to make it.

 

[Warbleed 10+ year member]

Good luck AA.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

I don't see anything in the deleted section.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/confused.gif.e820e0216602db4765798ac39d28caa9.gif

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/help.gif.cee8f684da1ba626487a8bc51152e1ec.gif

This is the shirt I'll be wearing to vote...

Honestly though, I need to make a t-shirt that says "George W. Bush can **** my ****."

 

[supa_c 5,000+ posts]

I just want to see the new stuff //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/tongue.gif.6130eb82179565f6db8d26d6001dcd24.gif
- Steve

Same here //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/angel.gif.fa7795fff6653f4381ba158c55a48b74.gif

 

[justsayk 10+ year member]

Sweet...I can finaly apply all that crap i've been learning in my business classes to the car audio world. It would be cool if you could give us a few more updates when they come. Also, can't wait to see some new products and some new pr0n!

 

[DanWiggins 10+ year member]

It would be nice if Factcheck.org could at least read and understand their own postings...

The incentive exists because the US taxes corporations at rates higher than most other countries. According to the Institute for International Economics, the effective rate for US corporations was just over 30% in 2002, while mainland China's effective corporate rate was only 11.3%, Britain's 18.2%, Mexico's 15.1% and Indonesia's a miniscule 0.2%.

In Chile, it's 17%. But let's say we're in Indonesia, just 0.2%. Wow, only pay 0.2% tax!
But wait...

Furthermore, the US also attempts to tax money that US-based companies earn in other countries, but only after those profits are brought back to the US. That means profits that remain overseas, perhaps invested in new factories in low-tax countries, never get taxed at the higher US rates. And that's been true through both Democratic and Republican administrations.

So, if I bring even a single cent back into the US, I pay the 30% tax the US imposes as well... In the case of indonesia, you're paying 30.2%, higher than the effective tax rate for the US.
So in actuality running an overseas operation causes one to pay MORE tax. You pay tax in the country where the activity takes place, then any profits you bring back are taxed by the US government.

So, where exactly IS the tax break from being located overseas? I know it's one thing to talk about it, it's quite another to actually SEE it...

Note that if I leave the money overseas and reinvest it in the business, then I don't pay the tax in the US. Of course, if I spend all my profit I earn in the US, I don't pay any tax here, either... You're taxed on net profit, not revenue. Spend all your profit, you end up with zero profit and hence zero taxes.

Dan Wiggins

Adire Audio

 

[DBfan187 5,000+ posts]

This is the shirt I'll be wearing to vote...

Honestly though, I need to make a t-shirt that says "George W. Bush can **** my ****."

I like it. Where can I order one?

If you didn't know, I don't like either canidate.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[idiot 10+ year member]

It would be nice if Factcheck.org could at least read and understand their own postings...

Talk to Cheney, not me. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Anyway, the solution seems obvious. Invest all your profits in a Chilean bank, funnel it through several others, and eventually bring it to the U.S., completely tax-free. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif In all seriousness, I’m hardly qualified to discuss the ramifications and possible avoidances of double taxation, as I’ve never taken an Economics class in my life. However, I am fairly certain that there are ways to avoid having the same revenue taxed twice when moving internationally. A quick search brought up this article, which almost sounds like the exact reverse of what we were discussing:

Link

Outsourcing to India is all the rage but companies should be careful that they don’t land themselves with double taxation, says Naresh Makhijani.
India is becoming synonymous with outsourced services in the same way that China has become with outsourced manufacturing. But to really reap the cost and service benefits of outsourcing to India, it is essential that companies do not overlook the tax issues associated with it. If firms are not careful, they could find a significant proportion of their operational savings being eaten up in a double whammy of both Indian and UK taxation.

Double taxation is precisely what could happen if a company sets up what is deemed to be a Permanent Establishment (PE) in India.

The Indian Government recognised the importance of Information Technology Enabled Services (ITES) a few years back and has provided a complete tax holiday to new establishments exporting such services, up to March 31, 2009. However, a risk exists that foreign companies – in their eagerness to jump on to the outsourcing bandwagon – may end up subjecting a considerable portion of their foreign income to tax in India if the activities of the outsourcing unit constitute a Permanent Establishment there. A recent circular of the Central Board of Direct Taxes (CBDT), India’s apex direct tax administrative body, lays down this proposition.

Generally, a PE is a fixed place of business through which a taxpayer, wholly or partly, carries on his business. India’s Double Taxation Avoidance Agreement (DTAA) with the UK further provides for specific situations – place of management, agency, etc – where a PE of a foreign enterprise is constituted in India.

Where a UK parent, which has a PE in India, outsources its core activities to India, the Indian income tax authorities could attribute a considerable portion of its income to the Indian outsourced activities – and tax such portion in India, over and above the income of the Indian subsidiary. This will lead to juridical double taxation in the hands of the UK parent, thereby significantly impairing the cost advantage that it would otherwise derive.

 

[`pr0digy 10+ year member]

I like it. Where can I order one?
If you didn't know, I don't like either canidate.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

Either ? You mean, "any of them", right ? Don't leave out the great Mike Badnarick from the Liberatarian (sp) party //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif