Current events discussion

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

Rob is literally looking at Tariffs from one point of view. His.

If tariffs were biden or kamala's idea, he'd be pushing the greatness of imposing tariffs...

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

The higher price due to the tariff leads less demand for the product...which reduces sales which leads to lower profits...

It's basic economics...

Lower profits leads to less money for payroll, leading to layoffs or a desire to offshore for cheaper labor or find a replacement for the labor.
Like a self-checkout, automated inventory systems, elimination of brick and mortar in favor of online shopping.
Maybe strip product features to hit a price point, like WalMart does.

So we punish the US consumer and hurt US business.
But everyone will be happy because foreign companies may also lose?

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

Lower profits leads to less money for payroll, leading to layoffs or a desire to offshore for cheaper labor or find a replacement for the labor.
Like a self-checkout, automated inventory systems, elimination of brick and mortar in favor of online shopping.

So we punish the US consumer and hurt US business.
But everyone will be happy because foreign companies may also lose?

You seem to think only the end of the supply chain will be affected...clearly you're either too dense to think it through or too bias to honestly consider the idea.

Price on coca-cola goes up...the interest in the product diminishes...which leads to lower sales...which in turns leads to less profit from sales...

As far as being happy...I won't be happy with tariffs, but at least someone is trying something meaningful to encourage the return of manufacturing, getting Canada and Mexico to stop allowing free rein through their countries so people can illegally come here, and put pressure on Mexico for their part in the drugs coming across the southern border...all those are good things I'm willing to suffer for...I believe most folks would be too

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

And I'm hoping the cartels get labeled as terrorist groups so we can actually take action that the weak government of Mexico refuses to do

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

You seem to think the end of the supply chain will be affected...clearly you're either too dense to think it through or too bias to honestly consider the idea.

So you think that the consumer will not be affected by a 25% tariff that the importer gets hit with?
OK fine. Tell me why the importer is going to absorbs that kind of hit. Or why the retailer will absorb it if the importer passes it on.
No memes, just straight up business examples where an increase in costs doesn't get passed to the consumer.

Price on coca-cola goes up...the interest in the product diminishes...which leads to lower sales...which in turns leads to less profit from sales...

That's a big assumption. How much of an increase will cause sales to fall off?
Cigarettes are $10 a pack. Did that industry vanish?
Starbucks is $7 a cup. Their profits go up every year.
I know Coke is not imported, but would a 25% increase in the price of a can kill sales? Go into a convenience store. You already pay 25% over going to a grocery store that is across the street. And people are happy to pay it.
What is the increase that reduces sales?

As far as being happy...I won't be happy with tariffs, but at least someone is trying something meaningful to encourage the return of manufacturing, getting Canada and Mexico to stop allowing free rein through their countries so people can illegally come here, and put pressure on Mexico for their part in the drugs coming across the southern border...all those are good things I'm willing to suffer for...I believe most folks would be too

I'm not sure how tariffs will make foreigners not find America a better place than where they are, or reduce the desire of Americans to do drugs (don't blame the gun, blame the person holding it; don't blame the dealer, blame the drug user -right?), but tariffs have failed since the Great Depression.
If "doing something meaningful" is simply repeating a tactic that has failed over and over, maybe "doing something meaningful" should be a different tactic?

Pick any product that we get primarily through import, but used to get here.
Why is it imported now?
What incentive is there to make it here again?
How do we make it at a price that's close enough to the import, so the 42,000,000 min wage workers can afford it?

Tariffs don't work. Trickle down doesn't work.
"Something meaningful" is not trying to hide from competition or hurt them, it's doing BETTER than them.
I don't advocate government interference in business, but when a business owner is making $300,000 per hour (or whatever it is) while his worker makes $8/hour, that's certainly not a path to "better".
And it's only happening more and more. The financial power is moving more, and faster, to a very small number of people.

And financial power yields other power. They don't want to give up a dollar, so they pay a lobbyist millions to influence lawmakers regarding things like minimum wages, overtime wages, demanding tips in lieu of wages.
They don't want to lose a dollar, so they pay lobbyists to influence lawmakers to ignore pollution.
And they just become more and more wealthy. And powerful.
A win for capitalism, but not for our citizens.

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

So you think that the consumer will not be affected by a 25% tariff that the importer gets hit with?

You're being naive and implying I said something I didn't to argue a different point

I don't advocate government interference in business, but when a business owner is making $300,000 per hour (or whatever it is) while his worker makes $8/hour, that's certainly not a path to "better".

So you're saying the business and hourly employee have the same level of financial risk in said business and deserve similar reward?

Tariffs don't work.

You're expert in this or parroting the party line? Biden's ideas didn't solve the immigration problem most of our country wants fixed...Biden's idea didn't slow the flow of drugs into our country...but trying a different tactic is a worse option than doing the same shit we've done for decades in your opinion...

 

[ThxOne Premium Member]

Trump wants secure borders. Canada and Mexico are allowing migrants into their countries who then enter our country illegally bringing crime and drugs. THIS IS A PROBLEM. If you don't think this is a problem Rob then YOU are part of the problem.

We import products from Mexico and Canada as well as China. Trump's stand to Mexico and Canada, tighten your shit up or you will pay more/make less to do business with America. If these companies pay importers to get their product to America and these importers don't want to lose money importing products then they may not import the product at all. Mexican and Canadian manufacturers will complain to their governments and the governments will either comply or lose money themselves.

Nobody wants to lose money. You go on thinking Trump tariffs are all about hurting the left out of spite or something.

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

You're being naive and implying I said something I didn't to argue a different point

You said the "end of the supply chain" won't be affected. We'll use WalMart as an easy example of the "end of the supply chain".
WalMart is a direct importer of many of the goods they sell. They ARE the end of the supply chain.
Like most retailers, they shoot for a 50% GPM, and had $533 BILLION in US sales in 2023 . It's estimated that 80% of their goods are from China, so $400 BILLION is sales of Chinese goods in one year. Since they keystone their cost to get their selling price, that's a COGS of $200 BILLION.

Now, let's tack a 25% tariff on those goods. WalMart now has to pay an additional $50 BILLION for those goods.
WalMart is notorious for how thin they make profits for their producers. They are brutal. Remember when they broke the price barrier on CDs that had existed for a decade? Their producers have little to no room to move after WalMart is done with them, much less the ability to eat 25% or even half that.

So, that leaves $50 BILLION that SOMEONE has to foot the bill for. We can be sure WalMart isn't going to just take the hit. They've already said so. That means it gets passed on to the consumer.

I haven't been able to find a quote by any company CEO who has said "we're happy to cut into our profits to keep retail prices the same", but maybe they exist.
Trump could be one of them, with his $60 bible that costs $3 to make.
But American retailers don't see anywhere near that kind of margin...

So you're saying the business and hourly employee have the same level of financial risk in said business and deserve similar reward?

Not at all. But when the owner makes more in an hour than 35,000 employees combined (the employees who make HIM the $300,000), the imbalance might be a little too extreme. Kind of approaches a "robber baron" theme.
And the employees actually DO have a financial risk in the business. THEIR JOB.

You're expert in this or parroting the party line? Biden's ideas didn't solve the immigration problem most of our country wants fixed...Biden's idea didn't slow the flow of drugs into our country...but trying a different tactic is a worse option than doing the same shit we've done for decades in your opinion...

Trump's ideas didn't solve the immigration problem most of our country wants fixed. Remember, he was POTUS for 4 years too. What are his new ideas and tactics?

Can you explain how you equate a 25% price increase to much of the goods you buy stops the flow of drugs into our country?
Do you think that charging more for the goods you buy will leave us with less money for drugs, and then the import of drugs will stop?

We have been in a war on drugs for 50 years. It's a war we simply can't and won't win until we eliminate demand. We know this. History shows this.
Demand will ALWAYS result in a supply if money is to be made.

So, how does a 25% price increase on your new 75" Sony TV eliminate the demand for illegal drugs?

"Just ask Timothy Boyle, the CEO of Columbia Sportswear, who told investors recently that “the argument about tariffs improving the domestic production of items such as footwear and apparels are fallacious …. the commodities that we engage in with footwear and apparel are among the most highly tariffed in United States. Some of the product carries as much as nearly 40% duties, and that has not translated into increased investment in domestic production.”

In an interview with the Washington Post last week, Boyle was more direct, saying the company is already planning to raise prices. “We’re buying stuff today for delivery next fall. So we’re just going to deal with it and we’ll just raise the prices. … It’s going to be very, very difficult to keep products affordable for Americans.”"

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

Trump wants secure borders. Canada and Mexico are allowing migrants into their countries who then enter our country illegally bringing crime and drugs. THIS IS A PROBLEM. If you don't think this is a problem Rob then YOU are part of the problem.

Trump wanted secure borders his first time around, and failed to secure them.
How is a tariff going to secure the borders?
And don't say the tariffs are a bluff. He tried it before and will try it again, because he thinks it works.
And he keeps claiming that the foreign manufacturers pay a tariff, and his followers seem to to believe. Maybe HE even believes it. But that's just not how a tariff works, and never has.

We import products from Mexico and Canada as well as China. Trump's stand to Mexico and Canada, tighten your shit up or you will pay more/make less to do business with America. If these companies pay importers to get their product to America and these importers don't want to lose money importing products then they may not import the product at all. Mexican and Canadian manufacturers will complain to their governments and the governments will either comply or lose money themselves.

The foreign companies sell to importers, who then sell directly to the public (like WalMart, AutoZone, BestBuy, etc) or they sell to a retailer who can't or doesn't want to be an importer (like Steve's Stereo Shops, or Bill's Ford Dealership).
Importers pay the mfgr for the goods, then pay a tariff on the goods when they get here. WalMart pays the tariff and tacks it right on to the product. They did exactly this during Trump's last run, and they have stated they will do this again if he imposes tariffs.
Steve's Stereo doesn't pay the tariff, but they will pay a higher wholesale price for the goods, which will result in a higher retail price so they can keep their doors open.
The tariffs Trump imposed on imported goods from China in 2018 cost the average American household and extra $500/year for their goods, disregarding inflation increases.
They figure it'll be closer to $2,600 per household if he imposes the tariffs he wants.

But let's not forget that it's not a one-way street. Other countries can, have, and will hit us too. Remember the trade war with China? it didn't work out so well.

Nobody wants to lose money. You go on thinking Trump tariffs are all about hurting the left out of spite or something.

Exactly. NO ONE WANTS TO LOSE MONEY. That tariff is going to be passed directly to us in the form of increased costs for goods. That is an instant inflationary increase, when inflation has been dropping for 2 years and is right about where it should be.
But it's "good" inflation because Trump will be the DIRECT cause of it?

I'm struggling to find the good in that, and I truly do not see how it will stop drugs or illegal immigration.

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

But when the owner makes more in an hour than 35,000 employees combined (the employees who make HIM the $300,000), the imbalance might be a little too extreme. Kind of approaches a "robber baron" theme.

So the hourly are risking losing vast amounts of assets or money? Nobody is forced to accept low pay...

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

That tariff is going to be passed directly to us in the form of increased costs for goods

So increased prices from reckless spending causing inflation is just fine provided the correct party is doing it but potential increases to curb serious problems is just unacceptable...I understand exactly where you're coming from...

 

[RobGMN Premium Member]

So the hourly are risking losing vast amounts of assets or money? Nobody is forced to accept low pay...

It was a tangent regarding a much bigger picture of something that is not working great for our citizens, and I said I don't know a solution.

Do YOU think it's a good plan to have a limited number of insanely wealthy people running things while the rest just live day to day getting by?

I don't. But I also believe in capitalism, so it's a Catch-22.

And the "get a better job" mantra is simply bullshit. I'm sure you know that.

So increased prices from reckless spending causing inflation is just fine provided the correct party is doing it but potential increases to curb serious problems is just unacceptable...I understand exactly where you're coming from...

Can you tell me more about the "reckless spending causing inflation"?
What exactly was the reckless spending?
Who approved it and what was it spent on?
Was there any type of economic event preceding the inflation?

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

Do YOU think it's a good plan to have a limited number of insanely wealthy people running things while the rest just live day to day getting by?

I don't but considering politicians do more than anyone else to bring this about...changing how we do things and stop with the same tired "solutions" over and over is the way past that problem

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

Think how much generational wealth just social security has removed from American citizens...any other retirement option can be passed on to your heirs but social is gone when you die...how much more money would we have in our pockets if the government wasn't bloated and wasteful with our tax dollars? It's starts with streamlining government and their spending before hammering on business will make a single difference

 

[spokey9 5,000+ posts]

Can you tell me more about the "reckless spending causing inflation"?

Just look at our deficit...we don't end up that far in fckn debt from responsible spending by our government...period