my saga with p99RS continues please help or assist. or advice...

[mio 10+ year member]

Hi guys,
my saga with p99 continues...
So just to summarize,

headunit p99rs

front speakers morel nano virtus 602
rear speakers jl audio c5
tweeters from c5 series from jl...

3 car amps mosconi pico 2 in order to drive 2 tweeters, 2 speakers rear, 2 speakers front, i am also waiting for my box which will be sub and have integrated amp there too. but thats not important here..

as you know i am new - i am guessing i am noob.
So one person claimed /told me that ,
in order to achieve full potential of my car speakers i need
Here are words "loudspeaker must actually be driven by analog amplifiers to achieve its full sound potential. doing with your current set up is like putting diesel engine in aston martin"

Can someone clarify because i dont understand is my mosconi pico 2 - digital amp or analogue or ? ? I know that mosconi is class d amp and i know that my amp is wired to my speakers with Rca cablers....


my questions are - what car amps are analogues - and what are the best analogues car amps - ? how i can recognize digital vs analogue car amp,

if i get really good analogue car amp - since i am not sure if mine is analogue or digital - will i notice better sound quality - like more dept of i dont know...
please advice thanks.

Click to read more...

 

[JTF Vegas]

How do you like the p99rs?

 

[JTF Vegas]

P9 combo owner here.

 

[02WS6]

Sounds like someone is being an ass about Class A/B amps vs Class D. I would refer you here to learn more: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classes

The Mosconi Pico 2 is a Class D amp. It's the most efficient but least "Audiophile" grade amp and can introduce distortion at higher levels, however at Mosconi's level I think you might be splitting hairs as they build really good products. A/B amps are what are usually used for high level audiophile level equipment but they require more power to properly run them which requires additional power from your car's electrical system to support (alternator,big 3, additional batteries etc) its all relative. If you're not providing enough power to run the amps you'll introduce distortion at lower levels than what the amps are rated for.

Most "Audiophile" builds use A/B amps to run their mids/highs and Class D for their subs. Some even run A/B on their sub but unless you're going for a crazy SQ build or "Look how much money I have" most don't see the point in the loss in efficiency on their sub. You'll need to look into Ohm's law - Figure out how much power you need based on the RMS of the speakers you have and work backwards from there to the electrical system in your car. (Basically the amperage your car alternator produces vs what it uses to keep the engine running/lights on vs what is left to run a stereo.)

 

[mio 10+ year member]

Sounds like someone is being an ass about Class A/B amps vs Class D. I would refer you here to learn more: https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classes

The Mosconi Pico 2 is a Class D amp. It's the most efficient but least "Audiophile" grade amp and can introduce distortion at higher levels, however at Mosconi's level I think you might be splitting hairs as they build really good products. A/B amps are what are usually used for high level audiophile level equipment but they require more power to properly run them which requires additional power from your car's electrical system to support (alternator,big 3, additional batteries etc) its all relative. If you're not providing enough power to run the amps you'll introduce distortion at lower levels than what the amps are rated for.

Most "Audiophile" builds use A/B amps to run their mids/highs and Class D for their subs. Some even run A/B on their sub but unless you're going for a crazy SQ build or "Look how much money I have" most don't see the point in the loss in efficiency on their sub. You'll need to look into Ohm's law - Figure out how much power you need based on the RMS of the speakers you have and work backwards from there to the electrical system in your car. (Basically the amperage your car alternator produces vs what it uses to keep the engine running/lights on vs what is left to run a stereo.)

I use to own class a/b/ amps but i sold them without using them i will tell you why,
because they consume too much space
and space at my car is at premium thats why i switched to more compact pico amps...
i was thinking that analogue amps are old ones before many years they use//d bulbs or something not digital things and they sound better, so it turns out analogue vs digital is only class ab vs class d ??
nothing else ?

In the end will i hear any difference,
like more dept or better louder speakers or something...
if i get some big class a/b/ amps i would need several..
depends how much benefits i will get if i receive 50-100% more sound quality why not, but if difference is lets say 10% i am not sure if its worth it..

also if i high level means listen to the maximum i dont listen my speakers or everything to the max i would say i listen at 70% at max.. never at 100%
so i am not sure if this will apply to me..

Right now my current speakers front and rear are 80w and my mosconi amps are rated at 2 channel each per 80w , so 160 w total so its fine by me..
i dont need more power because speakers can get damaged,
also i have 2 farad capacitor, since i dont have big 3 upgrade..

i read this page which u have given me and it claims " No possibility of crossover distortion. " i dont use cross overs my p99 have integrated crossovers so i use radio crossovers instead of separate/d boxes outside that radio so i am not really sure... again if this will benefit me if i go to class a amps.

 

[02WS6]

I use to own class a/b/ amps but i sold them without using them i will tell you why,
because they consume too much space
and space at my car is at premium thats why i switched to more compact pico amps...
i was thinking that analogue amps are old ones before many years they use//d bulbs or something not digital things and they sound better, so it turns out analogue vs digital is only class ab vs class d ??
nothing else ?

In the end will i hear any difference,
like more dept or better louder speakers or something...
if i get some big class a/b/ amps i would need several..
depends how much benefits i will get if i receive 50-100% more sound quality why not, but if difference is lets say 10% i am not sure if its worth it..

also if i high level means listen to the maximum i dont listen my speakers or everything to the max i would say i listen at 70% at max.. never at 100%
so i am not sure if this will apply to me..

Right now my current speakers front and rear are 80w and my mosconi amps are rated at 2 channel each per 80w , so 160 w total so its fine by me..
i dont need more power because speakers can get damaged,
also i have 2 farad capacitor, since i dont have big 3 upgrade..

A/B amps are considered analog based on the way they process or modulate the signal. Class D amps are way more efficient/smaller but are also considered "digital".

Amplifiers in A/B are generally considered the best compromise solution for most Audiophile car builds due to power limitations in cars. You can find Class A amps in old school audiophile home stereo equipment or vacuum tube amps. Think old school McIntosh or Marantz (Most of their newer stuff is solid state A/B). These amps work better in Home Theater because you have 120 VAC to use instead of the 12VDC in your car.

I've heard of Class A vacuum tube car amplifiers but that is such a small market, they're probably very big, very expensive and very difficult to find and for your situation, completely out of the question. Maybe an 80's-90's full size van or a completely built out show car you could spend 10's of thousands of dollars just to say you did it. With 4-5 alternators and a rack of batteries to run it all.

Car audio is always a compromise and efficiency is key. Seeing as space is a premium in your situation, you picked the best option for your situation. High quality Class D amps. The actual differences in sound is always very subjective and have more to do with the soundstage in the car and the quality of the media being played. But I would hazard a guess that the difference is closer to the 10% range than 50%. Most don't think it's worth it unless you're crazy into getting the highest fidelity sound you possibly can.

I personally don't believe in Caps but that is another divisive issue. My basic rule is, do your lights dim at night when you're playing music loudly? No? Great leave everything be. However, if your car turns into a nightclub with the beat of the music then upgrade Big 3 and figure out a higher amperage alternator based on your needs. It doesn't sound like you're running at those levels, yet... at least.

I don't know what car you have, what your goals are or what kind of money you're looking to spend but in MOST cases? Someone saying "Oh you're not running analog amps you pleb?" is just trying to have a hipster level "I'm better than you" dick waving contest.

 

[mio 10+ year member]

So even if i buy best possible class A amp i wont notice more than 10% improvement in my current speakers and system?
not a/b since they arew hybrid and lower quality than b...
Imagine me getting old school class a mcintosh amp will i see /notice difference in quality and how big will it be , will it be like 50%? so to justufy the extra money well spend. - lets remove the things like limited space and energy etcs... just focus on pure quality because 50% to me sounds a lot, and they will justify me getting better amps or class a... Caps is great my car have tiny wires and before caps when i turn up the sound my stereo is dead now it lives another live..
i am happy from it and no 3 big upgrade since i am in limited country..

Right now my current goal is to optimize my system, do u think if i use p99rs mic to calibrate the system i will get decent result since in my country no one have that headunit and no one uses it so its really hard to do it alone and i dont know audio at all....
also do u think its worth getting DSP ?

my goal right now is to wait to receive my sub and to see where i will be able to fit/install it if possible underseat or in rear panel or something since it will consume tons of space...

 

[02WS6]

Almost no one runs Class A because of the amount of additional electrical work required to feed them on a car's electrical system. You would be sacrificing so much on the efficiency side of things for such a small amount of fidelity the juice isn't worth the squeeze in my opinion.

You might notice more but again completely subjective, how good are your ears? Have you listened to a full class A Mcintosh on Wilson Sabrina's? Can you tell the difference between that and a Mid-Class Yamaha pushing on Reference series Klipsch?

Its all subjective and unless you have loads of cash to drop just to say you did? Whatever makes you happy.

Are you not happy with the results you currently have? Seems to me you've got a really great HU, amps and drivers. Use the mic and calibrate the system you should have fantastic results. Your P99RS has a 32-Point DSP already built in, no need for another one. Learn how to calibrate what you have and if you're not happy then spend more money.

 

[mio 10+ year member]

Almost no one runs Class A because of the amount of additional electrical work required to feed them on a car's electrical system. You would be sacrificing so much on the efficiency side of things for such a small amount of fidelity the juice isn't worth the squeeze in my opinion.

You might notice more but again completely subjective, how good are your ears? Have you listened to a full class A Mcintosh on Wilson Sabrina's? Can you tell the difference between that and a Mid-Class Yamaha pushing on Reference series Klipsch?

Its all subjective and unless you have loads of cash to drop just to say you did? Whatever makes you happy.

Are you not happy with the results you currently have? Seems to me you've got a really great HU, amps and drivers. Use the mic and calibrate the system you should have fantastic results. Your P99RS has a 32-Point DSP already built in, no need for another one. Learn how to calibrate what you have and if you're not happy then spend more money.

So if i get very high end class/a/b will i see decent benefit brand is not important here but if let say quality is like 30-40% more may be its worth it ?
i never listened mcintosh in my entire life they arent available here , yamaha arent available as well as klipsch so i cannot tell but i use to own some senhaiser stuff - back there before many years and vs other companies i always find it superriour very high end audiophile quality i love it , since i needed cash i sold it before many years.. but i still keep the good memories may be i will get 1 more senhaiser stuff someday... for my home,

Right now i am not happy from my music quality results we expected much more from these expensive speakers- so my first idea was to upgrade them but i dont know with what i can upgrade jl audio c5 may be with 7 series, but if i do so i will need to get their processor in order to drive them, which i am not sure if its good idea because it will spend a lot of money 2 speakers + their processor... - i know p99rs have dsp we have not been there yet, no clue if we will manage to make any use of it since its such a rare unit in my country, and no one knows how to use that dsp , in my countrie people listen to car stereo at 20-30$ and they are very HAPPY.
people lacks amps or dsp etcs... and again hi-end people claim - your dsp inside p99rs is crap better get separated dsp outside p99rs - is this true will i see major difference between integrated p99rs dsp - vs very high end dsp from german company or some other high end brand...

 

[JTF Vegas]

So if i get very high end class/a/b will i see decent benefit brand is not important here but if let say quality is like 30-40% more may be its worth it ?
i never listened mcintosh in my entire life they arent available here , yamaha arent available as well as klipsch so i cannot tell but i use to own some senhaiser stuff - back there before many years and vs other companies i always find it superriour very high end audiophile quality i love it , since i needed cash i sold it before many years.. but i still keep the good memories may be i will get 1 more senhaiser stuff someday... for my home,

Right now i am not happy from my music quality results we expected much more from these expensive speakers- so my first idea was to upgrade them but i dont know with what i can upgrade jl audio c5 may be with 7 series, but if i do so i will need to get their processor in order to drive them, which i am not sure if its good idea because it will spend a lot of money 2 speakers + their processor... - i know p99rs have dsp we have not been there yet, no clue if we will manage to make any use of it since its such a rare unit in my country, and no one knows how to use that dsp , in my countrie people listen to car stereo at 20-30$ and they are very HAPPY.
people lacks amps or dsp etcs... and again hi-end people claim - your dsp inside p99rs is crap better get separated dsp outside p99rs - is this true will i see major difference between integrated p99rs dsp - vs very high end dsp from german company or some other high end brand...

The DSP inside the p99 is more than appropriate.

 

[JTF Vegas]

Its not too difficult to set crossovers or even time delay. A 31 band eq might be a different story. Use the mic, give a listen n see what you think. If you want, then go into individual frequency adjustment although i doubt youll need to.

 

[02WS6]

So if i get very high end class/a/b will i see decent benefit brand is not important here but if let say quality is like 30-40% more may be its worth it ?
i never listened mcintosh in my entire life they arent available here , yamaha arent available as well as klipsch so i cannot tell but i use to own some senhaiser stuff - back there before many years and vs other companies i always find it superriour very high end audiophile quality i love it , since i needed cash i sold it before many years.. but i still keep the good memories may be i will get 1 more senhaiser stuff someday... for my home,

Right now i am not happy from my music quality results we expected much more from these expensive speakers- so my first idea was to upgrade them but i dont know with what i can upgrade jl audio c5 may be with 7 series, but if i do so i will need to get their processor in order to drive them, which i am not sure if its good idea because it will spend a lot of money 2 speakers + their processor... - i know p99rs have dsp we have not been there yet, no clue if we will manage to make any use of it since its such a rare unit in my country, and no one knows how to use that dsp , in my countrie people listen to car stereo at 20-30$ and they are very HAPPY.
people lacks amps or dsp etcs... and again hi-end people claim - your dsp inside p99rs is crap better get separated dsp outside p99rs - is this true will i see major difference between integrated p99rs dsp - vs very high end dsp from german company or some other high end brand...

What car is this in?

I think you're not happy because you have no bass right now and the shallow mount Morel's are probably soft on anything below 100hz. You're running each driver from the pico's correct? No crossover connected right?

Make sure you are connected like this:

P99 Pre-amp out to the Pico's
(Make sure no crossovers are connected you don't need them with the individual Pico's and P99)
Turn off HP filters for everything but the tweeters. (Morel drivers are off, J5 is off, Morel tweeters are on)
Make sure your gains are set correctly on your Pico's. (Buy a multimeter and measure output or line level VAC voltage from the Pico to around 17.88 VAC) (√80watts X 4ohm) - Use a 1k tone generator for this bit with the speakers disconnected
Pico's line levels are connected directly to your drivers/tweeters

If everything is connected correctly, and Amp gains are set correctly, have you added sound deadener behind where the speakers are mounted? Hushmat/Dynamat or the German equivalent?

Lastly maybe just wait until your sub arrives install it and see how well it fills out the sound?

 

[mio 10+ year member]

What car is this in?

I think you're not happy because you have no bass right now and the shallow mount Morel's are probably soft on anything below 100hz. You're running each driver from the pico's correct? No crossover connected right?

Make sure you are connected like this:

P99 Pre-amp out to the Pico's
(Make sure no crossovers are connected you don't need them with the individual Pico's and P99)
Turn off HP filters for everything but the tweeters. (Morel drivers are off, J5 is off, Morel tweeters are on)
Make sure your gains are set correctly on your Pico's. (Buy a multimeter and measure output or line level VAC voltage from the Pico to around 17.88 VAC) (√80watts X 4ohm) - Use a 1k tone generator for this bit with the speakers disconnected
Pico's line levels are connected directly to your drivers/tweeters

If everything is connected correctly, and Amp gains are set correctly, have you added sound deadener behind where the speakers are mounted? Hushmat/Dynamat or the German equivalent?

Lastly maybe just wait until your sub arrives install it and see how well it fills out the sound?

No cross overs are attached since boxes are not even installed in the car, every channel is from pico, yes for example - low is connected from p99 to pico on pico is to speakers for low, and every pico is with different purpose low,high,mid etcs.... there is sound damping where speakers are mounted of course

I spoke today with prof. audio shop/ they told me difference between class D- and between class/a/b is 50% is this true ?!?!
When u got ears for that...

 

[02WS6]

No cross overs are attached since boxes are not even installed in the car, every channel is from pico, yes for example - low is connected from p99 to pico on pico is to speakers for low, and every pico is with different purpose low,high,mid etcs.... there is sound damping where speakers are mounted of course

I spoke today with prof. audio shop/ they told me difference between class D- and between class/a/b is 50% is this true ?!?!
When u got ears for that...

I don't agree with a 50% improvement across the board for A/B vs D. To many variables at play. I can usually hear the difference but it doesn't work for all applications or music. Also I think you'll need to move over to lossless music formats to really hear a difference. MP3 or streaming wont cut it as a media source IMHO. Also I think you already said you don't have the room for them?

If you're dead set on finding the room than you'll want to go with the Zapco Z-AP series or one of the Mosconi Gladen's. Unless of course you are into the old school stuff which you'd need to rely on local Pro-Audio shops to help you find as it doesn't seem like they're all over the place on eBay like they are for us here in the US.

 

[mio 10+ year member]

My music will stay on mp3 since its the most popular worldwide available format, and most of my stuff is very hard to find even in mp3,
so i use mp3 320kbps,
i can be without a trunk space but only if the difference is really 50% , because 50% is really big,
mosconi pico cost 250 euro dont know how much from this is marketing,
how much is components,,
mosconi pro and gladen zero cost way more but i will not use all of their functions like crossovers etcs... since i already have in my car stereo so its like hard choise, does someone compared in real world test mosconi pico vs mosconi pro or mosconi gladen class a/b series vs class d? ?
i listen to offline music in mp3 format only.