torn spiders?

[Immacomputer 10+ year member]

yes but when he isn't turning the volume all the way up the higher volage input only means that he reaches higher levels of power quicker so in other words with his stock speakers he can only turn the volume up to about 50% without blowing them so to get the sound he wants out of his subs he would have to double the gain... meaning that if he wanted to get 1000w out of 2V. (50%) of max output voltage he would have to set gain to 2V

You don't have to explain what gain is to me; I'm not an idiot. I know exactly how volume level and gain level work together. I also know how idiots and improper installs work together. You have a ton of first hand experience with this.

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

Funny thing is, your favorite tool... the one you used to measure sound quality and cancellation last time... would come in REAL handy here...

//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/laugh.gif.48439b2acf2cfca21620f01e7f77d1e4.gif

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

here is the skinny.

headunit has a MAX OUTPUT VOLTAGE (in the RCA outputs). lets assume its 4v.

amplifers have a range of INPUT VOLTAGE (in the RCA inputs). lets assume thats 1v to 10v. (wich are very exaggerated numbers)

your headunit will never ACTUALLY play 4v on the outputs, because that would be with bass boost and bass all the way up playing test tones ect ect. but lets ASSUME, SOMEDAY 4v will be reached.

so, you look in the manual. and you see the gain knob. on the amp there are numbers 1-20. and it says in the manual, that the 1 setting on the amplifier is 10v, and the 20 setting on the amplifier is 1v.

you need to realize, the HIGHER the voltage output of the headunit, the LESS the amplifier needs to work to get the RMS output. so the HIGHER the voltage is set for the gain, you are tell the amp that the headunit puts out MORE voltage, and the amp can work less.

so, in retrospect, if your buddy has a 4v headunit, and you told the amp he had a 3v headunit. the amp will work harder to make up for less input power - aka, your gain is set incorrectly. and thats bad. mmmmkay.

read manulas. they are ftw.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

reguadrless i think i have discovered the origin of the problem no thanks to about 90% of you... i told you repeatedly that they were not being over-powered but you didn't want to listen...

dija think about this? if they were over-powered wouldn't the voice coil go out and not the spider... don't even try to say you were refering to mechanical handleing when saying that a 1000 watt amp is putting out 1500 watts....that is clearly saying that you believe or suspect is was due to a power handleing issue...

oh and something else..... if that shitty amp can put out 1500 watts then why was i called such an idiot for saying that a 1000/1 could put out 1600... when you all know full-well that they are among the most conservatively rated amps on the market?

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

here is the skinny.
headunit has a MAX OUTPUT VOLTAGE (in the RCA outputs). lets assume its 4v.

amplifers have a range of INPUT VOLTAGE (in the RCA inputs). lets assume thats 1v to 10v. (wich are very exaggerated numbers)

your headunit will never ACTUALLY play 4v on the outputs, because that would be with bass boost and bass all the way up playing test tones ect ect. but lets ASSUME, SOMEDAY 4v will be reached.

so, you look in the manual. and you see the gain knob. on the amp there are numbers 1-20. and it says in the manual, that the 1 setting on the amplifier is 10v, and the 20 setting on the amplifier is 1v.

you need to realize, the HIGHER the voltage output of the headunit, the LESS the amplifier needs to work to get the RMS output. so the HIGHER the voltage is set for the gain, you are tell the amp that the headunit puts out MORE voltage, and the amp can work less.

so, in retrospect, if your buddy has a 4v headunit, and you told the amp he had a 3v headunit. the amp will work harder to make up for less input power - aka, your gain is set incorrectly. and thats bad. mmmmkay.

read manulas. they are ftw.

they are not set ideally but they are set right for his system, i allready said that he wants to reach his prefered maximum level from the substage when the

HU is at 50% volume , the gain setting of 3V should be about perfect for that unless i'm missing something else?

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

also, clipping.

this is a clipped sinewave.

basically a square wave, but the top of the wave SHOULD be there. that top thats clipped is the 'cieling' that the amp can produce. the spikes you see are distortion, and can jump way higher than this image shows (overpowering subs)

now this is not what prolly caused your spiders to rip, as clipping is usually a thermal monstor and melts coils. but the overpowering + large box, could have lead to mechanical failure on the spiders.

the 'flat' part of that wave essentially makes the cone stop for miliseconds. and this equals "DC" current. the problem with this is, after enough time, it will heat up the coil because the vertical movement of the cone is what cools the voice coil down. when that movement stops, or is not efficent enough to cool the coil it will eventually melt.

but thats just to explain that now.

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

also, clipping.
this is a clipped sinewave.

basically a square wave, but the top of the wave SHOULD be there. that top thats clipped is the 'cieling' that the amp can produce. the spikes you see are distortion, and can jump way higher than this image shows (overpowering subs)

now this is not what prolly caused your spiders to rip, as clipping is usually a thermal monstor and melts coils. but the overpowering + large box, could have lead to mechanical failure on the spiders.

the 'flat' part of that wave essentially makes the cone stop for miliseconds. and this equals "DC" current. the problem with this is, after enough time, it will heat up the coil because the vertical movement of the cone is what cools the voice coil down. when that movement stops, or is not efficent enough to cool the coil it will eventually melt.

but thats just to explain that now.

i understand that but do you understand that this is the reason i have been saying that it is not because of to high a gain on the amps... because just as you said and i have allready said, if it were the problem it wouldvv'e been more likely for the coil to melt not the spider to tear...

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

they are not set ideally but they are set right for his system, i allready said that he wants to reach his prefered maximum level from the substage when the HU is at 50% volume , the gain setting of 3V should be about perfect for that unless i'm missing something else?

do not set to 50% volume, because in all honestly, he could have turned it up past that and not told you.

you are guessing at the 3v thing, because i know for a fact you did not measure that number on the headunits preouts. call me psysic.

and if you mean set right for his system, you would have used a scientific method to come up with that conclusion. IE, the gain formula Jmac layed out in the amplifier forum sticky, or reading the manual and measuring the outputs with a multimeter and setting gain accordingly at max volume (50% volume is not safe, what if a passanger had some fun with the volume knob).

and clipping can lead to mechanical failure. USUALLY it leads to thermal problems, but as stated, the spikes in voltage caused by distortion durring clipping (not always heard by the human ear) can force the cone to move further than specs recommend, not to mention its in a large-ish box on more power than is recommended in the first place.

im sorry, in my oppinion, a mix of clipping, and large box size killed those spiders.

eaither that, or it was a manufacturer defect, and ive neaver heard of a typex spider failing. so im going to have to rule that out im afraid.

 

[Immacomputer 10+ year member]

reguadrless i think i have discovered the origin of the problem no thanks to about 90% of you... i told you repeatedly that they were not being over-powered but you didn't want to listen...

Yes, they were over powered and that is why the spiders tore. Over powered does NOT mean over rather RMS. It DOES mean that you put too much power to the speaker to either thermally destroy it or mechanically destroy it. In both cases, you over powered it.

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

i understand that but do you understand that this is the reason i have been saying that it is not because of to high a gain on the amps... because just as you said and i have allready said, if it were the problem it wouldvv'e been more likely for the coil to melt not the spider to tear...

key words

more likely

im afraid you are more speculation than fact mr jones. believe what you will. i have come to my conclusions based on previous knowledge, and scientific method.

 

[req 5,000+ posts]

what do you think squeak?

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

do not set to 50% volume, because in all honestly, he could have turned it up past that and not told you.
you are guessing at the 3v thing, because i know for a fact you did not measure that number on the headunits preouts. call me psysic.

and if you mean set right for his system, you would have used a scientific method to come up with that conclusion. IE, the gain formula Jmac layed out in the amplifier forum sticky, or reading the manual and measuring the outputs with a multimeter and setting gain accordingly at max volume (50% volume is not safe, what if a passanger had some fun with the volume knob).

and clipping can lead to mechanical failure. USUALLY it leads to thermal problems, but as stated, the spikes in voltage caused by distortion durring clipping (not always heard by the human ear) can force the cone to move further than specs recommend, not to mention its in a large-ish box on more power than is recommended in the first place.

im sorry, in my oppinion, a mix of clipping, and large box size killed those spiders.

eaither that, or it was a manufacturer defect, and ive neaver heard of a typex spider failing. so im going to have to rule that out im afraid.

ok i'll try this again, correct me if i am wrong... with a 4V pre-out and volume set to 50% in order for that amp to push 1000w at that precise level gain would have to be set to 2v... by setting the gain to 3v. he gave himself 1/3 below that power.... so at 50% volume he should be at 666 watts.... trust me i was in the car when he blew the fac. tweets they went before he got half way up, his mids couldn't take much more

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

key words


im afraid you are more speculation than fact mr jones. believe what you will. i have come to my conclusions based on previous knowledge, and scientific method.

if i had fact i wouldn't have asked the question

 

[squeak9798 5,000+ posts]

what do you think squeak?

I think I LOL @ cotjones

 

[cotjones 10+ year member]

Yes, they were over powered and that is why the spiders tore. Over powered does NOT mean over rather RMS. It DOES mean that you put too much power to the speaker to either thermally destroy it or mechanically destroy it. In both cases, you over powered it.

i know that the speaker was over powered mechanically but you never once presented that possibility till now you clearly argued that the amp was pushing more than the thermal rateing of the subs which is 1000