real peak power of the 1200.1 jbl

[jlaine 10+ year member]

Originally posted by marauder ok you can believe as you will that the peak amplifier rating is twice the RMS value if you want i'll no longer continue this debate since i know nothing about how these things //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif LOL. believe as you will while those who truly know actually know. and as for the oscilliscope comment i have looked at sound and it's simply an impure sinewave that still rises, peaks, and then falls just like a pure sine wave and the magnitudes are the same at given volume. so therefore the power cannot be higher since the values are relatively the same only the frequencies are different.

 

 

thanks, and have a nice day.

Ignorance is bliss for you, isn't it...

Look at the power under the curve for a given period of time from sine wave, to musical impulse. If you still cannot grasp it, then the only problem is your incapability to understand common logic.

 

[marauder 10+ year member]

ok i'll give you this chance. i'll admit i'm wrong if you can produce book written proof from a reputable source that i'm wrong and you are right. i've scaned a copy of pages out of a textbook proving my case now prove yours. we can call it the pepsi challenge of ac theory. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif a sinewave is a sinewave no matter if it's a 60hz signal found in wall outlets or rob zombie thumping out of the back of a minivan. RMS to PEP is going to be the same on the voltage level.

thanks

and no i'm not ignorant i just know a sales pitch when i hear it.

which sounds better? an 800 watt amp for $500 or a 1600 watt amp for $500. not saying that you are actually telling your customers this or at least i hope you aren't.

 

[Wonderbread 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by marauder ok i'll give you this chance. i'll admit i'm wrong if you can produce book written proof from a reputable source that i'm wrong and you are right. i've scaned a copy of pages out of a textbook proving my case now prove yours. we can call it the pepsi challenge of ac theory. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif a sinewave is a sinewave no matter if it's a 60hz signal found in wall outlets or rob zombie thumping out of the back of a minivan. RMS to PEP is going to be the same on the voltage level.

 

thanks

 

and no i'm not ignorant i just know a sales pitch when i hear it.

 

which sounds better? an 800 watt amp for $500 or a 1600 watt amp for $500. not saying that you are actually telling your customers this or at least i hope you aren't.

ooooooohh...... this could get nasty.... lol... where's my popcorn?

 

[marauder 10+ year member]

hey if he can prove me wrong then i'll whole heartedly admit it. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif he has to show me that a modulated sinewave driven by as he calls it mixed signals can cause the RMS to have to be doubled to obtain PEP. i'm very aware of average power in a driven wave but that of course would be less than PEP and that's not what he's saying. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Wonderbread 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by marauder and no i'm not ignorant i just know a sales pitch when i hear it.

 

which sounds better? an 800 watt amp for $500 or a 1600 watt amp for $500. not saying that you are actually telling your customers this or at least i hope you aren't.

this is what i was referring to... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif now where did i put that **** bowl!

 

[marauder 10+ year member]

yeah i really shouldnt have said that that was a personal attack and i shouldn't stoop to his level of that. well it was said and i now withdraw that statement.

thanks

 

[Moocow16 10+ year member]

hmmm, if an alien comes down to earth and says that all aliens lie, would you believe him?(if it were a him) oh, and speaking of popcorn, does anybody else like it when you get to the bottom of your popcorn bucket and there's a little lake of butter? oooo that's so fattening but it tastes good with salt

 

[jlaine 10+ year member]

You made it entirely too easy for me.

Ever heard of a true RMS meter? Ever wonder WHY they make them?

I mean, if peak is peak, wouldn't RMS be RMS? Take the peak and multiply by .707, RIGHT?

Ohh crap... then comes TRMS.

The beginning of this lesson:

"The distorted waveform is actually a summation of the fundamental frequency sine wave and a variety of harmonics. Harmonics are actually pure sine waves themselves but each has a frequency that oscillates at a multiple of 60Hz (i.e. 3rd harmonic = 3 x 60 = 180Hz, 5th harmonic = 5 x 60 = 300Hz).

To find the total RMS value of any distorted wave, you have to take "the square root of the sum of the squares" of the RMS value of the fundamental and the series of harmonics. (admittedly it's easier to see this demonstrated than to explain it!!)"

Feel free to continue reading here - http://www.lehmanengineering.com/quiz/quiz5sol.html

Also note the EQUATION for calculating harmonics inside of a waveform is NOT Vpeak *.707, it's the square root of the net sum of the squares.

What does that mean?

PEAK SUDDENLY HAS POTENTIAL TO BE MORE THAN 1.414!!

More backup against your thought process...

"A conventional volt meter simply calculates the RMS value as A x 0.7071, where A is the peak voltage. Most conventional volt meters assume the input is sinusoidal and may introduce an error if the waveform is distorted or non-linear. "

Note the entire distorted waveform/ non-linear waveform comments given. Note where it plainly states a 'conventional volt meter calculates RMS as a simple .7071 times the apparent voltage at the time it's measuring.' Also note that it "assumes" the input is perfectly sinusoidal and may introduce an error if the waveform is distorted or non-linear.

Then we have this link here:

http://www.voltech.com/Downloads/86050_02.pdf

Explaining thuroughly average values and how to properly calculate non-sinusoidal waveforms and as with anyone that can understand common math, you can PLAINLY see that a musical waveform will have more power under the curve.

Be sure to read up about crest factor, and be sure to note how it plainly states that the crest factor of the waveform depicted is MUCH GREATER THAN 1.414. Suddenly, peak becomes a much more sticky figure!

Go down to page 5, in black and white... It takes harmonics.. .and ADDS them to every piece of the fundamental wave, INCREASING IT.

I could go on for days with this... You clearly don't have enough electrical background though.

Class is over.

 

[ss3079 5,000+ posts]

*Skips into class and places an apple on Mr.Laine's desk*

"You're late, you fool...get in the closet".

Some good info there though guys...

- Steve

 

[Wonderbread 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by ss3079  

"You're late, you fool...get in the closet".

 

 

- Steve

Steve, you were always in there... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/satan.gif.9c6a335ed7aeeed3ee273e573f1fcaac.gif

 

[tommyk90 5,000+ posts]

I feel this is appropriate

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by tommyk90 I feel this is appropriate

I believe I made that one, thank you.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[marauder 10+ year member]

Originally posted by jlaine You made it entirely too easy for me.

 

Ever heard of a true RMS meter? Ever wonder WHY they make them?

 

I mean, if peak is peak, wouldn't RMS be RMS? Take the peak and multiply by .707, RIGHT?

 

Ohh crap... then comes TRMS.

 

The beginning of this lesson:

 

"The distorted waveform is actually a summation of the fundamental frequency sine wave and a variety of harmonics. Harmonics are actually pure sine waves themselves but each has a frequency that oscillates at a multiple of 60Hz (i.e. 3rd harmonic = 3 x 60 = 180Hz, 5th harmonic = 5 x 60 = 300Hz).

 

To find the total RMS value of any distorted wave, you have to take "the square root of the sum of the squares" of the RMS value of the fundamental and the series of harmonics. (admittedly it's easier to see this demonstrated than to explain it!!)"

 

Feel free to continue reading here - http://www.lehmanengineering.com/quiz/quiz5sol.html

 

Also note the EQUATION for calculating harmonics inside of a waveform is NOT Vpeak *.707, it's the square root of the net sum of the squares.

 

What does that mean?

 

PEAK SUDDENLY HAS POTENTIAL TO BE MORE THAN 1.414!!

 

More backup against your thought process...

 

"A conventional volt meter simply calculates the RMS value as A x 0.7071, where A is the peak voltage. Most conventional volt meters assume the input is sinusoidal and may introduce an error if the waveform is distorted or non-linear. "

 

Note the entire distorted waveform/ non-linear waveform comments given. Note where it plainly states a 'conventional volt meter calculates RMS as a simple .7071 times the apparent voltage at the time it's measuring.' Also note that it "assumes" the input is perfectly sinusoidal and may introduce an error if the waveform is distorted or non-linear.

 

Then we have this link here:

 

http://www.voltech.com/Downloads/86050_02.pdf

 

Explaining thuroughly average values and how to properly calculate non-sinusoidal waveforms and as with anyone that can understand common math, you can PLAINLY see that a musical waveform will have more power under the curve.

 

Be sure to read up about crest factor, and be sure to note how it plainly states that the crest factor of the waveform depicted is MUCH GREATER THAN 1.414. Suddenly, peak becomes a much more sticky figure!

 

Go down to page 5, in black and white... It takes harmonics.. .and ADDS them to every piece of the fundamental wave, INCREASING IT.

 

I could go on for days with this... You clearly don't have enough electrical background though.

 

Class is over.

BRAVO my good man you have proven me wrong.

i never gave much thought to the harmonics that are left in the circuit since it's a mega low frequency we deal with i figured that harmonics would not even be an issue. but hey you took the pepsi challenge with me and won hands down. i salute you and bend to take my lashings. there i can be the big man and admit when i'm proven wrong. in my applications at home (ham radio) we exclude and attempt to eliminate the harmonics from our equipment and mathmatical formulas.

but again you win i was WRONG and i admit it. it was a good debate and hope to have better conversations in the future. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

 

[Wonderbread 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by marauder but again you win i was WRONG and i admit it. it was a good debate and hope to have better conversations in the future. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

Classy....

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by marauder BRAVO my good man you have proven me wrong.

i never gave much thought to the harmonics that are left in the circuit since it's a mega low frequency we deal with i figured that harmonics would not even be an issue. but hey you took the pepsi challenge with me and won hands down. i salute you and bend to take my lashings. there i can be the big man and admit when i'm proven wrong. in my applications at home (ham radio) we exclude and attempt to eliminate the harmonics from our equipment and mathmatical formulas.

 

but again you win i was WRONG and i admit it. it was a good debate and hope to have better conversations in the future. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif

Seriously, we need more people like this. I read this whole thread, and I can't even call it an 'arguement', because marauder never seemed to even go offcourse with the topic at hand. People with this attitude make this a great forum.//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif