Not happy with CDT Eurosport setup

[Carnivore 10+ year member]

I've had my CDT ES-620s in for a few weeks now, and I've always known something was missing but couldn't quite put my finger on it. The midbass sounds solid and the highs sound extended, but the snare lacks snap and the vocals sound airy but somehow lacking. Finally I went out with an SPL meter and measured a range of spot frequencies from a commercial reference CD.

It turns out things seem pretty smooth across range except there's a big dip (about -10dB) at 500Hz, followed by a spike (about +6dB) at 1kHz. That's tough to fix with EQ, especially with the limited options in my head unit. My Kenwood does have some good EQ options but even if I add some boost at 500Hz with a narrow Q setting it's still going to push up that spike around 1k. I tried and it helped a bit but I'm still not happy with it.

I wonder how much is due to the acoustics / standing waves in the vehicle, and how much is due to the woofer itself. at 500Hz it shouldn't have anything to do with the crossover or sub (which I took offline for the test anyway). Does anyone know where I can see a frequency response graph of that ES woofer or its Vifa equivalent? Even if the speaker has a just small characteristic anomoly in that area it might be getting exacerbated by the acoustics of the vehicle. I'd like to see if that's the case before going to the effort and expense of swapping it out for a different model.

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[DejaWiz 5,000+ posts]

How are they mounted?

 

[Carnivore 10+ year member]

Stock location in an '07 Rav4 front door. Woofer is mounted on 3/4" MDF ring, I used speaker gasket on the back of the woofer and the ring, door is deadened over 50% on with butyl-based product.

 

[djdilliodon 10+ year member]

From the looks of your set it appears to be an older model ES-620 instead of the ES-62i. The midbass drivers are very similiar and i have seen linear X graphs of both which didnt show any significant dips. The drivers actually had a pretty flat response to about 4khz and then started to dip a bit. Is the problem in sound you are having something of lack of depth? Like the voices and some instruments sound to detailed or hollow?

 

[Carnivore 10+ year member]

Here's the best way I can describe it. It sounds full but kind of wooden. It has definition, especially in the highs, but lacks presence. The lows are solid and the highs have that silky tweeter sound that goes "psst psst", but the vocals sound chesty, the snare is missing snap, the overall sound isn't as forward as I like it.

My guess was that something was missing in the 4k range like you said, but my measurements with an SPL meter showed 4k was fine whereas 500Hz was down. I bumped up the EQ about 3dB at 500Hz with a narrow Q and it did actually seem to make things sound better, but the edge is still missing. Maybe it is actually down at 4k too. Or maybe I should have gone with a metal tweeter instead...or maybe it's a combination of different things. I guess this is what people mean when they say something sounds "laid back". I'll bet some listeners would think it sounds great, especially if they're into jazz or something, but it's not to my taste. I want to hear that snare drum snap, I want vocals to sound clear, forward and detailed, I want the transients to hit, not just the bass.

Not sure if there's a cheap or easy fix, I suspect I'll probably have to live with it. I kept debarting between Focal and CDT, ended up going with the CDT because of numerous comments I heard about Focal sounding "harsh". Now that I hear these, I'll bet I would have like that so-called "harsh" quality though. Different strokes, as they say.

 

[djdilliodon 10+ year member]

What i would do is make sure there is no leaks in your baffle. Also i would finish the entire door in deadener and maybe add a deflex pad behind each of the drivers. From the way you describe it sounds to me its all in the midbass drivers. Also if you can try it active as maybe that passive is just not going to cut it in your car. Some cars are a mess when it comes to sound and some are not as bad. Going active will give you alot more control and if you have a 4ch amp then your already half way there //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[Rich B 5,000+ posts]

As far apart as your two drivers are from each other you might try reversing the polarity on either the mids or the tweeters.

A hollowness can be a sign its out of phase.

 

[XHiFiX 10+ year member]

Stock location in an '07 Rav4 front door. Woofer is mounted on 3/4" MDF ring, I used speaker gasket on the back of the woofer and the ring, door is deadened over 50% on with butyl-based product.

Well I also have a Toyota and if your doors are anything like mine, there's probably a BIG access hole behind that thin plastic sheeting. I'd remove that "plastic film" and like dj recommended, use some good damping material. But before you apply it over the access holes, put something over them (like wire mesh) to add a structural surface for the damping sheets to go on. Seal up small holes and use silicon or clay to make a good gasket, then you should have a true IB. Good luck.

 

[Carnivore 10+ year member]

Thanks guys, I'll try those things. I suspect what I'm really hearing, though, is that dip around 4kHz that Dj mentioned. That's right around the range where those snare transients and vocal presence should be, so I don't know if damping, going active or reversing phase are really going to solve that. Sounds like it might just be a in inherent characteristic of the midbass driver.

 

[djdilliodon 10+ year member]

Thanks guys, I'll try those things. I suspect what I'm really hearing, though, is that dip around 4kHz that Dj mentioned. That's right around the range where those snare transients and vocal presence should be, so I don't know if damping, going active or reversing phase are really going to solve that. Sounds like it might just be a in inherent characteristic of the midbass driver.

Actually if that is the problem you can solve it by going active. Since your set is an older model it uses the 480 xover which has a pretty high xover point of around 4.3khz. The new model includes the 560's which use a lower xover point. If you went active you can lower the xover point and it may just solve the problem.

 

[DejaWiz 5,000+ posts]

Hey Don, do you know what the Fs is on those tweeters?

 

[djdilliodon 10+ year member]

drt25 or drt26?

 

[DejaWiz 5,000+ posts]

sorry, the DRT25 (ES-620 set)

 

[djdilliodon 10+ year member]

2100hz on the drt25, recommended xover point is 2.5k up

 

[helotaxi 5,000+ posts]

It sounds like you are having phase/time alignment issues. No amount of EQ will fix it. I have the set of Eurosports previous o those and they didn't sound right until I added a bit of delay on the driver's side.