It's war time...

[1zenlunatic 10+ year member]

Boy do i have a shitload of facts and opinions to add about this one....

But i wont even go there

Well ok, just a little...

All ive got to say is that a conservative thinktank in washington dc circulated a doctrine in the early 90s

outlining a plan for the advancement of US influence in the middle east. This plan involved

the submission/ domination and possible invasion of Iraq, Syria, and Iran. This plan was backed by the far right but rejected as too extremist by the moderate Bush Sr., similarly rejected by Clinton, but warmed quite a few desktops and briefing rooms of the current administration. After 9/11, The Bush Jr. Team decided to push ahead full steam and begin implimenting this plan. Im still researching this one.... But my hunch is that the Bush docrine is just the beginning....

I will post a link of the document im referring to soon-take it for whatever you think its worth--

In the meantime, kickoff was at 5pm, Grab a six pack, a beer and the remote.

ENJOY THE SHOW!

 

[TheGrimReaperKD 10+ year member]

Good to see my thread taking off.

We may "win" the war....I don't expect them to attack so soon...they will get us when we least expect it...just like they did last year....you don't piss off a guy like Saddam..

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

on the subject of how the military is spending money, as in the extremely high cost of bombs, the ultimate goal here is to not expend any of our military's lives, you and I know that our government would rather dop a million dollars than lose a human life, so in that respect think about the luxury that we have the ability to send intelligent bombs instead of sending in humans yet, the fact is the bombs are already built so complaining about the cost is hersay, those weapons are for takeing out their military installitaions with out risking the loss of US lives

 

I pray for the Iraqi people that are indanger and are being used as shields for Hussiens weapons, and for our men and women that are there risking theirs on behaf of ours

 

[SoundsUnlimited 10+ year member]

War is an ugly word and sure as hell is an ugly thing, countries get ruined, people loose their lives, economys plumit..But sometimes war is what it takes to bring back a country or as in our case re-establish our COMPLETE freedom...Saddam is a man that believes killing is a way of life, he is a severely disturbed person who has to be taken out of power..I believe this war in the long-run with benefit the economy will re-establish the sense of freedom upon americans..I for one am for the war..I believe that we should do all that is within-in our god given rights and powers to destroy saddam's army and SADDAM....For one it will help eliminate the oppsing threat of terrorists...ya know ants are not really a problem, wheren theres just a few...but when a colony of ants gets disturbed and try to retalitate against something, they can almost overcome any other animal despite there size...Well with this war, WE GOT R A I D>//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif .....The overall objective of the war as explained by the president is to free the Iraqi people from a self-destructing leader who has empowered himself by brain washing his people and establishing a sense of fear in them...Most of all of us respect President Bush, I sure do, No he isnt the sharpest knife in the cubbert...But he does do things that help to benefit the country and I feel he is a well respected man...So all in all, war is not a good thing..it never has been and never will be..But you have to look at the long-run things of war..We all know that right now, war is going to make it tough on us americans here back at home..But in the future when we look back on this war, we will see a whole different prespective on it! I feel war is a beneficiary to us! So lets give our up-most support and love to all those who are in foreign lands and on the eternal line of LIFE AND DEATH to help keep our freedom..We have made it our business to have freedom when the colonists first step foot upon this land(US)....We have gone to wits end to defend out freedom and our home land NUMEROUS times...and we have prevailed in all, and we will strive to Conquer and defeat a threat which is now upon us!!

For all the americans fighting over seas--GOD BLESS!!!

Blake //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

 

[nswartley 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by denim on the subject of how the military is spending money, as in the extremely high cost of bombs, the ultimate goal here is to not expend any of our military's lives, you and I know that our government would rather dop a million dollars than lose a human life, so in that respect think about the luxury that we have the ability to send intelligent bombs instead of sending in humans yet, the fact is the bombs are already built so complaining about the cost is hersay, those weapons are for takeing out their military installitaions with out risking the loss of US lives

 

I pray for the Iraqi people that are indanger and are being used as shields for Hussiens weapons, and for our men and women that are there risking theirs on behaf of ours

the military has stated previously that they will avoid using bombs/missles on iraqi troops....

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by nswartley the military has stated previously that they will avoid using bombs/missles on iraqi troops....

yeah thats a good thing, since there have already been some that have surrendured to american soldiers

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

oh yeha, guys put this into perspective, the High school where I teach, we have a large ESOL program (english is second language) and I was in the hall way out side one of the ESOL classrooms during the pledge to the flag this morning and every single on of the muslim children in that homeroom were standing and had their hand over their heart and was saying the pledge to the flag, word for word, and on the other hand there were some ignorant kids on the other side of the hall, who were american born and spoke english just fine, were sitting there at their desk and talking,

 

this made me extremely angry, the ignorance and disrespect was unreal at that moment, I wish you guys could have seen it, all of these kids know what is happening in Iraq, and many of the esol kids are from the area, so it is a huge contrast, and I could understand if the opposite was occuring, but it was not, and thats unbelieveable, my little sister told me last night that a bunch of kids from her HS were going to do a walk out in the middle of the day, I almost blew up right there,

 

but I just wanted to tell you guys that, just to put things in perspective, where kids who's families and friends are still over there could die very soon, still stand up and support the United States, pretty powerful statement

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by SoundsUnlimited War is an ugly word and sure as hell is an ugly thing, countries get ruined, people loose their lives, economys plumit..But sometimes war is what it takes to bring back a country or as in our case re-establish our COMPLETE freedom...Saddam is a man that believes killing is a way of life, he is a severely disturbed person who has to be taken out of power..I believe this war in the long-run with benefit the economy will re-establish the sense of freedom upon americans..I for one am for the war..I believe that we should do all that is within-in our god given rights and powers to destroy saddam's army and SADDAM....For one it will help eliminate the oppsing threat of terrorists...ya know ants are not really a problem, wheren theres just a few...but when a colony of ants gets disturbed and try to retalitate against something, they can almost overcome any other animal despite there size...Well with this war, WE GOT R A I D>//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif .....The overall objective of the war as explained by the president is to free the Iraqi people from a self-destructing leader who has empowered himself by brain washing his people and establishing a sense of fear in them...Most of all of us respect President Bush, I sure do, No he isnt the sharpest knife in the cubbert...But he does do things that help to benefit the country and I feel he is a well respected man...So all in all, war is not a good thing..it never has been and never will be..But you have to look at the long-run things of war..We all know that right now, war is going to make it tough on us americans here back at home..But in the future when we look back on this war, we will see a whole different prespective on it! I feel war is a beneficiary to us! So lets give our up-most support and love to all those who are in foreign lands and on the eternal line of LIFE AND DEATH to help keep our freedom..We have made it our business to have freedom when the colonists first step foot upon this land(US)....We have gone to wits end to defend out freedom and our home land NUMEROUS times...and we have prevailed in all, and we will strive to Conquer and defeat a threat which is now upon us!!

 

For all the americans fighting over seas--GOD BLESS!!!

 

Blake //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/cool.gif.3bcaf8f141236c00f8044d07150e34f7.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/smile.gif.1ebc41e1811405b213edfc4622c41e27.gif

Wow.. were to start..

First off, THIS IS NOT A HUMANITARIAN ENDEAVOR.. that means, we are NOT there to help the Iraqi people!!!!! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL *sigh*.. if the US gave a rat's *** about those people, we would NOT have let Saddam stay in power back in 91 when we were there .. he was every bit the psycho then as he is now.. OUR COUNTRY DOESN"T CARE.. figure it out.. The government tells the media and thereby the populous what it wants to hear, not the truth.. the truth is burried in specialty shows (not all of which are unbiased either) and obscure press clippings and sometimes in forgein lands..

As far as I know, Saddam has NOT been directly linked to any terrorist activity.. other than on his own people.. but guess what, we let all kinds of psycho rulers stay in power that do just as horrid things to their people.. why? WE DON"T DO HUMANITARIAN WARS... it's not economically sound.. The US only engages in wars when it stands to make money.. well, except this one (supposedly).. estimates have it costing over $100 billion before all is said and done.. even with the last war, we got almost all of our money back (out of pocket was something like a few hundred mill).. Yes, terrorism sucks and we should protect ourselves from it, but this is no longer the justification Bush is using for being in Iraq.. HE KEEPS CHANGING THE REASONS.. an unmistakable sign that there is a hidden agenda and his administration will use any means necissary to achieve that agenda..

Oh, and if you actually believe we've had 'complete' freedom in your life time? you are pretty dense.. There have been attacks against Americans (even on US land) for a long time.. It's just our attitude and disregard for the rest of the world and our ignorance that lets us believe we are 'completely free'..

god given right and power... Hmm.. again, just like the Kings we tried to get away from.. believing they had some 'special' right above all other humans.. nice.. And Saddam believes 'god' gave him the right and power to do what he does.. How about finding some OTHER, more REASONABLE reason for getting him out, like what he is doing is wrong DESPITE ANY RELIGIOUS IMPLICATIONS.. ya know? like, torturing for the sake of torturing is obviously wrong to anyone that seems to be rational?..

Most of all of us respect President Bush, I sure do, No he isnt the sharpest knife in the cubbert...But he does do things that help to benefit the country and I feel he is a well respected man..

Hitler was a well respected man too.. and did a lot for his country.. your point? Not to mention, he is also doing a lot of things that are 'bad' for 'this country' but good for a few of his rich buddies.. Like setting up another $3 trillion dollar deficit that was just about paid down.. now we will have it back in a few years.. That's not good for 'this country'... not at all..

I feel war is a beneficiary to us! So lets give our up-most support

I think I'll leave it at this.. a beneficiary is someone you leave soemthing TO.. Should I die in an accident, my Daughter is my beneficiary... and you do something to the utmost.. Your entire post is filled with glaring errors like this.. It makes me understand a bit more how you came to your views and opinions.. they obviously aren't your own, at least not your own "well thought out" opinions.. You are what I would call a Media Sponge.. and there is no point in trying to enlighten you.. Not to be rude, but when you can't even manage to form a reasonable set of paragraphs to express your thoughts, there is no point in hoping you might be able to absorb and analyze someone elses thoughts (not saying you have to agree, just be able to understand.. )

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by denim oh yeha, guys put this into perspective, the High school where I teach, we have a large ESOL program (english is second language) and I was in the hall way out side one of the ESOL classrooms during the pledge to the flag this morning and every single on of the muslim children in that homeroom were standing and had their hand over their heart and was saying the pledge to the flag, word for word, and on the other hand there were some ignorant kids on the other side of the hall, who were american born and spoke english just fine, were sitting there at their desk and talking,

Muslim does not mean Iraqi.. And, since there are a LOT of muslims in the Middle East, MANY of whom are nowhere near this conflict, I'm not sure how this has any relavance..

I'll add, when I was in High School, in 85-ish, I didn't say the pledge of allegiance either.. I was personally offended that, despite the sepperation of Church and State (which was in the courts at the time as well), we had the whole "under god" part.. I don't believe in god.. and I refuse to pledge anything to something I don't believe in.. if our Pledge of Allegiance requires the acceptance of god, then I guess it's a pledge I can't make in good conscience...

this made me extremely angry, the ignorance and disrespect was unreal at that moment, I wish you guys could have seen it, all of these kids know what is happening in Iraq, and many of the esol kids are from the area, so it is a huge contrast, and I could understand if the opposite was occuring, but it was not, and thats unbelieveable, my little sister told me last night that a bunch of kids from her HS were going to do a walk out in the middle of the day, I almost blew up right there,

So, now, it's no longer an American right to protest? (the HS part).. And I agree that our kids today are ignorant and disrespectful.. it's a sign of the times.. most adults are the same way.. Over 50% of our ADULTS can't read at a 10th grade level.. pathetic.. These people are having kids and can't read the instructions on the baby seats that they are putting in their SUVs that never see anything but clean asphalt.. Nice..

but I just wanted to tell you guys that, just to put things in perspective, where kids who's families and friends are still over there could die very soon, still stand up and support the United States, pretty powerful statement [/b]

Like I noted, there are over 1.5 billion (iirc) muslims in the Middle East (and only 250 million Americans in the US).. MOST of them are NOT in the war zone..

You teach High School? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/nono.gif.eca61d170185779e0921b0faa9704973.gif

 

[97dakota 10+ year member]

these are my thoughts and feelings.

if we don't remove sadam from power, he will gladdly and willingly give away sell for a huge profit anything and every thing he has.

I feel that he has mass destructive weapons if that makes sense, and will not hesitate to use them.

I feel that he is compariable to hitler in the torture that he inflicts on people. Oh and savant, I will try to find that link about the fish food.

I feel that the muslim religion as a whole is a radical, war loving religion that should not be tolerated. at the same time I live in america were freedom of religion is aloud. that is why we are so great. you guys heard about that muslim that sued the new york police for not lettin ghim where his towel.

I feel that if we don't, remove EVERY THREAT that we possible can from this earth towards america, may be, MAYBE my kids or grandkids could live in peace and not with the threat of terroism.

I would rather go and fight, and die to remove these powers then leave it for my children to do.

I feel that if american scum that is blocking the intersections and such are no better than sadam.

I feel that AMERICA IS THE BEST AND ALWAYS WILL BE THE BEST NATION ON EARTH.. I would do anything for this country that grants me the right to live in FREEDOM.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by 97dakota I feel that if we don't, remove EVERY THREAT that we possible can from this earth towards america, may be, MAYBE my kids or grandkids could live in peace and not with the threat of terroism.

 

I would rather go and fight, and die to remove these powers then leave it for my children to do.

Um.. there are ~250 million Americans and over 5.75 BILLION other people on this planet.. over 1.5 billion (iirc) muslims, many of whom don't really like us (not that they are willing to attack us).. Anyone that doesn't like us is a potential threat, it's only a matter of time till we piss them off more than they already are.. SOOOoooooooo.. You would have the 250 million Americans go out and kill 5.75 billion other people (ok.. maybe only 4.5 billion of those dislike us enough to be potential threats) so we can ensure our children have no worries at all?

Good idea //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif

 

[denim 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by Savant Muslim does not mean Iraqi.. And, since there are a LOT of muslims in the Middle East, MANY of whom are nowhere near this conflict, I'm not sure how this has any relavance..

actually many of these kids have mentioned to me in recent weeks when I covered a class, that some of their relatives are still in Baghdad because they could nto afford the immigration to the United States.

Originally posted by Savant I'll add, when I was in High School, in 85-ish, I didn't say the pledge of allegiance either.. I was personally offended that, despite the sepperation of Church and State (which was in the courts at the time as well), we had the whole "under god" part.. I don't believe in god.. and I refuse to pledge anything to something I don't believe in.. if our Pledge of Allegiance requires the acceptance of god, then I guess it's a pledge I can't make in good conscience.....

this is another subject that we have covered with the kids, regardless of their background race or color, they do not have to say it, but they could recite the pledge and not say "under god" if they do not want to, or if they are even more resistant they should atleast stand and be quiet and not talk while the pledge is being said and have some respect for the symbol that represents the country that they have the luxury to live in

Originally posted by Savant So, now, it's no longer an American right to protest? (the HS part).. And I agree that our kids today are ignorant and disrespectful.. it's a sign of the times.. most adults are the same way.. Over 50% of our ADULTS can't read at a 10th grade level.. pathetic.. These people are having kids and can't read the instructions on the baby seats that they are putting in their SUVs that never see anything but clean asphalt.. Nice..

I did not say it is un-American to protest, I just know that a large majority of these HS students today never read the paper or watch the news or atleast make an effort to stay in touch with what is going on with our counrty or in the world today, so for them to just march out of class to protest on something that they are educated very little on is purposterous, I could understand the teacher but not the students, they are only hurting them selves

Originally posted by Savant Like I noted, there are over 1.5 billion (iirc) muslims in the Middle East (and only 250 million Americans in the US).. MOST of them are NOT in the war zone..

 

You teach High School? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/banghead.gif.8606515f668c74f6de0281deb475b6fd.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/nono.gif.eca61d170185779e0921b0faa9704973.gif

if you have a some sort of problem with me teaching for a few years to pay for grad school then please say so, no need to make this personal, that really lowers the level of the conversation, and yes Baghdad is in the war Zone

not fighting just backing my points,

peace Denim

 

[97dakota 10+ year member]

I didn't say anything about killing every muslim. I said remove the threats, meaning the worst threats to the United states. meaning, iraq, suadi arabi, maybe even turkey, north korea not neccesarily muslims.

 

[97dakota 10+ year member]

50% of adults can't read at a 10th grade level. where is the proof. just curious.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by denim actually many of these kids have mentioned to me in recent weeks when I covered a class, that some of their relatives are still in Baghdad because they could nto afford the immigration to the United States.

but, you didn't say the kids from Baghdad, you said the 'muslims' in the class... very big difference.. If you say the 'kids from Baghdad were saying the pledge of allegiance' then I remove my previous statemtns (about the 1.5 billion muslims, most of whom don't live in Iraq)..

this is another subject that we have covered with the kids, regardless of their background race or color, they do not have to say it, but they could recite the pledge and not say "under god" if they do not want to, or if they are even more resistant they should atleast stand and be quiet and not talk while the pledge is being said and have some respect for the symbol that represents the country that they have the luxury to live in

Not saying the 'under god' part would be one option, but another would be to not speak the words of the entire piece since it's (as percieved by some) tained with it's inclusion of illegal words..

As for showing respect by being quite.. I agree that that is one 'nice' thing that could happen, but again, that implies a certian level of respect.. If there is no respect for the pledge it follows that there might be a sense of not needing to respect any aspect of it or it's presentation (milling about and talking during).. Not saying it's the civilized thing to do, but to me, understandable..

I did not say it is un-American to protest, I just know that a large majority of these HS students today never read the paper or watch the news or atleast make an effort to stay in touch with what is going on with our counrty or in the world today, so for them to just march out of class to protest on something that they are educated very little on is purposterous, I could understand the teacher but not the students, they are only hurting them selves

while you may be right and many of the protesters don't know any of the real background, you know as well as I do that some of them know full well what's going on.. And, how is it any different that uninformed 'kids' that are walking out in protest are any different than the people that are supporting (or at least vocalizing the need to support) the war with just as little information? I'd bet that most people out there don't really know a lot of what's going on.. and that's the way the government likes it..

if you have a some sort of problem with me teaching for a few years to pay for grad school then please say so, no need to make this personal, that really lowers the level of the conversation, and yes Baghdad is in the war Zone

 

not fighting just backing my points,

 

peace Denim

I agree that this should not be made personal.. but I'm sure you see what I said to SoundsUnlimited and his apparent lack of language skills.. I have a hard time respecting someone who isn't even intelligent enough to use proper grammer. I suppose I should have expounded on why I made the teaching comment.. It's mostly because you typed 3 paragraphs and near 17-ish (guessing) sentencase, and not ONCE used a period or capital letters.. Kind of bothers me to think someone is teaching my kid (not you directly, but you get the idea) that isn't willing or able to properly communicate in the written language.. Just makes me wonder what our kids are really being taught in our schools today (but then, we all know the US has one of the worst educational systems in the developed world)..

Again, I appologize for the personal attack.. It isn't conducive to a reasonable debate and it's something I call people on all the time (though, it's usually a much more blantant attack than what I've done.. but the subversion intended with my attack is no less present, and for that I appologize)..