It's war time...

[97dakota 10+ year member]

here we go again savant. lol lets keep to the facts, no personal shots. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/biggrin.gif.d71a5d36fcbab170f2364c9f2e3946cb.gif

 

[pacfalife 10+ year member]

Originally posted by 97dakota hey, I didn't read all of this thread so I might repeat some things but here goes.

 

as I am sure everyone agrees, war is a horrible, however sometimes neccesary endeavor. sadam is one of the worst guys in the nation at this time. both to his own people and those, like the americans which he hates. for an example, he radomly picked guys from the cities, and throw them in a plastic shredder. some head first, and some feet first. and then he used them for fish food.

 

sadam has been given 17 chances and has failed 17 times to disarm. each of these 17 chances, over twelve years, called for military disarmerment. and all of this was through the UN.

 

france is a little pissant that wants nothing than to destroy america. three or four years ago, france, went against, the same security counsel, to remove milosivic(sp) from power, with the help from whom, yes america under the control of CLinton. ofcourse the leftist werent' aganist a democrate military force.

 

bush is the legally appointed man choosen to lead this nation. sadam is a threat to america his own people, and every free nation in this world.

 

these peace activist are ALL SPONSERED BY THE SOVIET SOCIALLISTS. as well as those which are responsible for the terrorist attacks. the bad guys are trying to turn the nation against ourselves.

 

if this war was on oil, why in every other war have we always, rebuilt, and GIVEN BACK THE LANDS WHICH WERE ONCE IN OUR CONTROL

I like your point....thanx

 

[Gauntlet 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by pacfalife hey man i have never been able to watch war live....and watching it i guess has gotten me pretty stressed out.....it was stupid to go off on savant like that but i was pissed and i said i was sorry aight. I agree with the whole war and patriotism but the thing i don't get is when our nation says "kill osama, kill iraq" after 9/11 and then they change their mind and now they are gonna say something when war comes up? That is just a excuse cause they were to big of ******* to make a stand but now its gone to war and they are goin to now? THis is just how i feel....sorry bout the comments savant.

I think you are making way too many generalizations/rationalizations......and i'm too tired to argue about this right now. //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by pacfalife hey man ya know what i am just sick of people sayin "oh war sucks, oh bush is stupid, oh we are stupid" i'm just sick of it cause when 9/11 came around everyone was standing up for america and now people like you sit around like it doesn't even matter....well on the linkin of osama and saddam there is no proof of them not communicating....hey sorry to be rude i just got pissed cause here we are goin to war and even tho it is already started you are the kind of people that sit back on the couch with the remote and complain....and i hate that because i have been taught to stand for this country and i feel like people like you don't stand up for this country and i knew if your friends or relatives would of been involved in 9/11 then you would be on my side of this debate. Sorry bout earlier i just blew up but i give ya props for bein is whatever ya called it seabees.

I can fully understand the frustration.. these are hard times.. and there is a lot going on that can leave one confused and scared.. I know I'm scared.. scared for tomorrow, for my daughter, for our country, for the planet.. There are a lot of things to be scared about.. but resorting to being violently angry in a debate won't help that, and in that kind of mind set, no one can hope to learn and grow..

As to one point, no one can prove 'you' have 'not' communicated with bin Laden either.. I'm not sure what you were trying to get at there.. What I'm getting at is, there is no proof (that we've been shown) that there 'is' a connection, and if there is no connection, then we are not in Iraq because of Sept. 11, we are there for other reasons... does that make sense?

And, as Ganunt pointed out.. standing up for this country has nothing to do with supporting our leaders... Hell, our country was founded by people who believe in this country but hated the leaders (those being the kings in Britan).. we faught to be on our own and set up various rules for how 'we' wanted this country to be run.. Our current administration has a total disregard for that.. From my stand point, my views and stance is exactly FOR this country, but in direct opposition of our current leaders.. Take a look at the "Patriot Act" Bush just put into law (last year I think).. we have no rights now.. The Feds can walk into your house for NO real reason and rummage through your stuff, and all they have to do to get away with it is literally say "we had reason to believe there might be terrorist connections in that house" and offer NO proof.. That's the patriot act.. and the EXACT kind fo thing that had us go to war and make a declaration of our independance.. It's things like that that caused this country to be created in the first place, and Bush is trampeling all over that all the while convincing the public that it's in their best interest because terrorist are running around? bullshit..

Oh, and did you know that, just like with WW-II when we made POW camps for Japanese citizens, we have rounded up all the 'suspicious' middle eastern CITIZENS of this country? just to be safe?.. This entire thing has TONS of nasty implications that the public doesn't see and is being drawn away from by a currupt government that is playing on their emotions by using Sept. 11 as the leverage..

That's what I do NOT support.. lying and cheating Americans.. I think it's wrong.. I fully support those that are in the line of fire, and hope like hell that they pull through safe.. but, unfortuanately, I know we will loose a lot of our brothers and sisters in this, all for no real good reason..

 

[ricerdude 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Gauntlet

but standing up for your country doesn't necessarily mean supporting it in every single action taken. You can support your country and provide something to the growth and progress of society, while not supporting war. Linking war and patriotism together to the point where you cant have patriotism without supporting war is assinine.

that is absolutely correct..but i think in one way war is good and in another it is bad...the bad being bloodshed...and the good being the removal of saddam from the iraqian gov..or off the face of the earth..that is only if we catch him...my history teacher says there is over 100 men that look exactly like him...so how do we know if he isnt actually in the US or another country..and how will we know if we kill him...the people of iraq could fake it and we would probably call the war off...but i dont know ...i am very curious for what is going to happen in the future of the war....

D

 

[97dakota 10+ year member]

I would rather have my nation able to walk into a terroist house and take him into custody instead of sitting out side knowing they are doing something but having no power. while the government is corrupt, its not as bad as you think.

 

[ricerdude 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Savant I can fully understand the frustration.. these are hard times.. and there is a lot going on that can leave one confused and scared.. I know I'm scared.. scared for tomorrow, for my daughter, for our country, for the planet.. There are a lot of things to be scared about.. but resorting to being violently angry in a debate won't help that, and in that kind of mind set, no one can hope to learn and grow..

 

As to one point, no one can prove 'you' have 'not' communicated with bin Laden either.. I'm not sure what you were trying to get at there.. What I'm getting at is, there is no proof (that we've been shown) that there 'is' a connection, and if there is no connection, then we are not in Iraq because of Sept. 11, we are there for other reasons... does that make sense?

 

And, as Ganunt pointed out.. standing up for this country has nothing to do with supporting our leaders... Hell, our country was founded by people who believe in this country but hated the leaders (those being the kings in Britan).. we faught to be on our own and set up various rules for how 'we' wanted this country to be run.. Our current administration has a total disregard for that.. From my stand point, my views and stance is exactly FOR this country, but in direct opposition of our current leaders.. Take a look at the "Patriot Act" Bush just put into law (last year I think).. we have no rights now.. The Feds can walk into your house for NO real reason and rummage through your stuff, and all they have to do to get away with it is literally say "we had reason to believe there might be terrorist connections in that house" and offer NO proof.. That's the patriot act.. and the EXACT kind fo thing that had us go to war and make a declaration of our independance.. It's things like that that caused this country to be created in the first place, and Bush is trampeling all over that all the while convincing the public that it's in their best interest because terrorist are running around? bullshit..

 

Oh, and did you know that, just like with WW-II when we made POW camps for Japanese citizens, we have rounded up all the 'suspicious' middle eastern CITIZENS of this country? just to be safe?.. This entire thing has TONS of nasty implications that the public doesn't see and is being drawn away from by a currupt government that is playing on their emotions by using Sept. 11 as the leverage..

 

That's what I do NOT support.. lying and cheating Americans.. I think it's wrong.. I fully support those that are in the line of fire, and hope like hell that they pull through safe.. but, unfortuanately, I know we will loose a lot of our brothers and sisters in this, all for no real good reason..

dam you know your history well...but i totally agree with what you and Gauntlet say but pacfalife is one of my close friends and he is having a hard time bc his brother..which he is really close with...is being called up for duty...but i hope that none of us get nuked...there are peoeple from all over the us and the world on caraudio....if a nuke or ever a missile hits somewhere in the us we are likely to loose a member of caraudio or a member of our family or or someones family....i hope we take care or this before it gets worse...bush has already pushed the first button...who will push the next...

D

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by 97dakota as I am sure everyone agrees, war is a horrible, however sometimes neccesary endeavor. sadam is one of the worst guys in the nation at this time. both to his own people and those, like the americans which he hates. for an example, he radomly picked guys from the cities, and throw them in a plastic shredder. some head first, and some feet first. and then he used them for fish food.

Hmm.. not heard that one.. not sure if it's BS or not.. could be true, could be a rumor.. in any event, I agree that he's psycho.. but the US is NOT in the habbit of stepping in when a psycho is in power.. we only get involved when there are alterior motives.. Show me ONE instance when the US showed Altruism..

sadam has been given 17 chances and has failed 17 times to disarm. each of these 17 chances, over twelve years, called for military disarmerment. and all of this was through the UN.

Actually, the bulk of these resolutions are not for 'disarming', they are for many other things as well.. The last 'disarm' resolution only came out about 5 months ago.. and had no 'date' to it.. so, by 'legal' standards, he was fine.. Bush had the chance to offer a date, but instead decided to change to the idea that he had to 'step down', not disarm.. once again Bush changed the premis for our interest..

france is a little pissant that wants nothing than to destroy america. three or four years ago, france, went against, the same security counsel, to remove milosivic(sp) from power, with the help from whom, yes america under the control of CLinton. ofcourse the leftist werent' aganist a democrate military force.

I have no knowledge of this, so I can't comment on it..

bush is the legally appointed man choosen to lead this nation. sadam is a threat to america his own people, and every free nation in this world.

Legally appointed is up for debate.. the count of the election was never completed, and the Supreme Court gave him office.. IIRC, he was being sued when Sept. 11 happened..

these peace activist are ALL SPONSERED BY THE SOVIET SOCIALLISTS. as well as those which are responsible for the terrorist attacks. the bad guys are trying to turn the nation against ourselves.

 

if this war was on oil, why in every other war have we always, rebuilt, and GIVEN BACK THE LANDS WHICH WERE ONCE IN OUR CONTROL

When we had the first war, we didn't occupy Iraq like we will now.. we wanted to get the oil fields of Kuait freed.. we did that.. then we gave Saddam all kind of money and aid to rebuid his country.. All the while knowing, I'm sure, that a good portion of that money would go to building up a military and better weapons.. If we wanted to 'stop the psycho', we had the chance.. again, I submit, we weren't there for real humanitarian motives..

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by ricerdude dam you know your history well...but i totally agree with what you and Gauntlet say but pacfalife is one of my close friends and he is having a hard time bc his brother..which he is really close with...is being called up for duty...but i hope that none of us get nuked...there are peoeple from all over the us and the world on caraudio....if a nuke or ever a missile hits somewhere in the us we are likely to loose a member of caraudio or a member of our family or or someones family....i hope we take care or this before it gets worse...bush has already pushed the first button...who will push the next...

 

D

Like I said, my brother is already in Kuait.. and being a SeaBee, he goes in with the first wave of Marines to build their barracks for them, then builds landing strips and hospitals .. He's there.. he's being mobilized with the infantry.. he's walking over the border in a matter of hours to days..

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by 97dakota I would rather have my nation able to walk into a terroist house and take him into custody instead of sitting out side knowing they are doing something but having no power. while the government is corrupt, its not as bad as you think.

My point is, the founders of our country felt strongly enough about an individual's rights and due process that we went to war with kings to secure these rights..

I have no problem with busting in on a terrorist in their house, but I want there to be at least some modicum of proof before my door gets kicked in.. ya know? There are plenty of 'plubic record' type things to look at, or things you could 'subpena' (reciepts, etc) to gain some proof.. or tail someone and search them if they are truly being suspicious.. But the problem is, the new 'act' allows the gov to act without 'cause' or proof.. which is in direct confilct with our bill of rights and declaration of independence..

Again, if you truly believe those rights aren't that important, then I say I'm more patriotic than you //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[ricerdude 10+ year member]

i think that if they have suspicion to believe that some one is a traitor they shouldnt just break their door down..that is not right...well i guess it is now...but if the gov takes their time and watches people they might not have to have that law...i dont know...there are two sides to that....it matters..

D

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by ricerdude ..that is not right...well i guess it is now...

And this is my big issue with things as they are now.. the government has us so stirred up that we aren't sure of what we think is right.. Yet, our LAWS and CONSTITUTION make it clear.. problem is, we don't get those shoved down our throat like the 30 second blurbs on TV..

The Patriot Act isn't about not having time, it's about more agendas.. It's about politicians being power mongers and doing what ever they want.. Just like Dukes, , and Kings.. Arrogant fuks that feel they have an innate right to control the lives of those around them..

If someone is actaully a terrorist, they will be doing things in a public context that gives some 'reasonable' basis for deeper investigation.. once that happens, you get court orders for more action (bugs, tails, bank accounts, etc).. due process.. but now, if you are of arab descent, the feds can walk into your house for NO REASON and look through every thing you own.. that's just not right.. it diminishes the individual, violates them.. That's why we came up with probable cause and due process //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/wink.gif.608e3ea05f1a9f98611af0861652f8fb.gif

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

LMAO..

now we are over 15.. at 40.. so over $100 mill in missles so far..

and they are talking about how the 'stealth' fighter needed a 'radar scrambler plane' to go with it.. so stealth and non-stealth could do the same thing with this other plane flying wing.. man.. glad taxpayers spent BILLIONS on making the stealth planes that are now useless.. LOL great.. nice.. na, our gov doesn't piss away money.. not at all

 

[Space Monkey 10+ year member]

your totally right, and i dont see how they were able to sneak the patriot act through. theres gotta be one rational member of congress to see the bull thats going on. oh wait, they let NAFTA through.....

if you guys have a lot of time on your hands, you should read the patriot act. the sneaky bullshit they put in there is freaky. and if your up for it. read nafta. youll cry for a very long time (and not from reading a 200+ page bill)

on another note, this is just another tying up of loose ends. weve had to do this every few years when our ex-guys get out of line. thats right, most of the people put in power over in the middle east, north africa, and west asia were put there to stop the Soviets from taking over. ex. lybia and egypt=contra conflicts....osama=afghan being blown to shit(yes, osama was on the gov payroll once)....czech rebels=all the bull thats goin on still over there. hell, korean and vietnam wars took place so that the commies wouldnt take the east asian ports and charge tariffs out the assto use em. however, once the ussr collapsed, we left them all hanging. and you people wonder why they hate us so much.....

im not saying saddam was on our side, its just hes the only scapegoat readily available for that region(actual target is iran, but we cant hit it until iraq is subdued)

and whoever said this was an oil thing? the US has been looking for an excuse to hit the middle east for years now. why? because our oil fields in Alaska and now in the Gulf of Mexico can produce (and are currently for our oil reserves) twice as much oil as the middle east. because of this war, oil shipments will slow to a trickle, making our the US, the #1 supplier of oil. watch, in the next 2 weeks youll notice gas and oil prices plummet.

and finally, loss of life? to make a good comparison, look at vietnam, then look at gulf war. compare total troop deaths. now subtract the advancement in the fields of artillery, ground force tech and munitions, and airstrikes over the 12 years since the gulf war. i wouldnt doubt there will be more than 100 troop casualties, and 60% of that will be friendly fire(an appalling stat that came from the gulf war. its what you get when tech exceeds the man using it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif ) hell, most strike teams now use the recently declassified sniper rifles dubbed the ***** bangers (dont ask why //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif) they are anti-tank guns(which have a range of 2 miles) with a special digital scope that has a range of 1.85 miles( although it has been said a good sniper can ring a 2 cm target at 2.1 miles) this alone should say that we have the bigger advantage here.

all i gotta say is this: we need something to boost our economy. for christ sake the dow is 8000. 3 years ago it was over 10k. the only way to get out of this slump is either war or a new space program. the way it looks now, we might get both.(mmmm, scram jets)//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

just my $0.02....... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by Space Monkey your totally right, and i dont see how they were able to sneak the patriot act through. theres gotta be one rational member of congress to see the bull thats going on. oh wait, they let NAFTA through.....

 

if you guys have a lot of time on your hands, you should read the patriot act. the sneaky bullshit they put in there is freaky. and if your up for it. read nafta. youll cry for a very long time (and not from reading a 200+ page bill)

I have a copy of the act.. there is even a link here some place (at my own potential peril) that shows how I learned about it.. didn't want to believe it.. so I looked.. guess. what, almost 1/3 of that damm LAW/BILL is CLASSIFIED and we can't read it????? WTF?

on another note, this is just another tying up of loose ends. weve had to do this every few years when our ex-guys get out of line. thats right, most of the people put in power over in the middle east, north africa, and west asia were put there to stop the Soviets from taking over. ex. lybia and egypt=contra conflicts....osama=afghan being blown to shit(yes, osama was on the gov payroll once)....czech rebels=all the bull thats goin on still over there. hell, korean and vietnam wars took place so that the commies wouldnt take the east asian ports and charge tariffs out the assto use em. however, once the ussr collapsed, we left them all hanging. and you people wonder why they hate us so much.....

Thanks for bringing that up.. I totally forgot about those parts...

im not saying saddam was on our side, its just hes the only scapegoat readily available for that region(actual target is iran, but we cant hit it until iraq is subdued)

 

and whoever said this was an oil thing? the US has been looking for an excuse to hit the middle east for years now. why? because our oil fields in Alaska and now in the Gulf of Mexico can produce (and are currently for our oil reserves) twice as much oil as the middle east. because of this war, oil shipments will slow to a trickle, making our the US, the #1 supplier of oil. watch, in the next 2 weeks youll notice gas and oil prices plummet.

Now.. this I'm not sure of.. Saudi Arabia, if I recall correctly, produces 98% of the oil that we use.. That being the case, the Gulf barely keeps oil changes in business..

I don't know what we have for reserves versus what the total available is (I heard recently that we have 2 yrs reserve.. NOT good).. but I'm sure AK and the Gulf of Mexico can't compare to the middle east.. it's geology..

and finally, loss of life? to make a good comparison, look at vietnam, then look at gulf war. compare total troop deaths. now subtract the advancement in the fields of artillery, ground force tech and munitions, and airstrikes over the 12 years since the gulf war. i wouldnt doubt there will be more than 100 troop casualties, and 60% of that will be friendly fire(an appalling stat that came from the gulf war. its what you get when tech exceeds the man using it //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/frown.gif.a3531fa0534503350665a1e957861287.gif ) hell, most strike teams now use the recently declassified sniper rifles dubbed the ***** bangers (dont ask why //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif) they are anti-tank guns(which have a range of 2 miles) with a special digital scope that has a range of 1.85 miles( although it has been said a good sniper can ring a 2 cm target at 2.1 miles) this alone should say that we have the bigger advantage here.

 

all i gotta say is this: we need something to boost our economy. for christ sake the dow is 8000. 3 years ago it was over 10k. the only way to get out of this slump is either war or a new space program. the way it looks now, we might get both.(mmmm, scram jets)//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

 

just my $0.02....... //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/eek.gif.771b7a90cf45cabdc554ff1121c21c4a.gif//content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/crazy.gif.c13912c32de98515d3142759a824dae7.gif

While I would like to agree.. if Saddam has chem weaps (he did in 91 and used them, our gov denied it, but..) or bio weaps, he knows that this time it's a go for broke thing.. he'll dump that shit on our heads.. His own rep said it just now.. he will send a letter to the UN... if they do nothing, there is nothing else he can do.. which tells me, Saddam will let loose.. Loss of life stands to be a LOT worse than before.. We'll see..