It's war time...

[CarAudioAddict 10+ year member]

Originally posted by joshpoints If you are speaking of legalizing drugs, I would have to disagree with you. Drugs take over peoples lives. In the example you gave I'm assuming that no one is getting hurt. NO family abuse or illegal activity besides the use of drugs. My problem with it is a child should not be raised in that environment because I fear the child will follow in the parents foot steps and will take part in the drugs, but may take part in the bad activity that tends to come with drugs. So I'm against legalizing drugs. I can see where you are coming from though. I just feel that the majority of the stats show that we should keep drugs banned.

I believe he was just saying that if a person chooses to do stuff like that in their own home, and doesn't bother any one else, and keeps it under control he would be fine with that.

While I can agree to a certain point. MOST illegal drugs are illegal for a good reason, they kill thousands every year, and overall are a drag on society. The only exception to this that I know of is marijuanna, it has never directly killed anybody, has no permanent side effects, and is healthier for you than most legal drugs (cigarrettes, alcohol, and many prescription drugs).

The laws are made not to protect you from society, but to protect society from you.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by LWW More puke. What was shown was that Billy Jeff had received a pardon from President Carter for being a draft dodger IE AWOL IE with Federal warrants.

 

I also showed that Bubba plead guilty his last day in office to AVOID prosecution and accepted fines and disbarment in lieu of jail time. Anyone who actually believes Clinton never lied is a fool.

 

Problem reading again I see? I said I never initiated anything about the felony, never even heard anything about it until you brought it up.. yet you, with this response, seem to think I was trying to 'refute' the felony.. Then go on to and imply I'm a fool for not believing he lied after I just said you SHOWED HE DID proves once again that you weold rather beat dead horses, belittle peole, call names, make false associations, twist words, and fabricate statements to avoid offering anything of substance.. MENSA? doubt it..

Upfront tests have shown this. IRAQI citizens took them to it. And for the record NPR is National Public Radio, a very liberal source, and you can’t link to a broadcast item.

 

Tabun was found there and in a N Iraq terrorist camp. This is all over the media and undeniable.

 

UN inspectors themselves state that artillery shells made for dispensing chem weapons were found before the war. Generals are not usually put in charge of bugspray plants. Chem weapons sensors went off on day 1 over Kuwait when an Iraqi missile was destroyed. Perhaps it was actually fired by Terminex?

Yes, we found shells.. EMPTY.. we found barrels of chemicals that are thougt could either be pesticides or chem weapons.. from what I've seen so far, still nothing CONCLUSIVE.. perhaps something came in while I wasn't watching, but for some reason I'd think it would be the main story all over if it was substantiated.

You said earlier (or in the other thread you felt compeled to start) that you never said that the chem sensors going off was you saying chem weapons were used, yet you are perfectly willing to make that implication.. like you just did here AGAIN.. nevermind my explaining how those sensors go off with tons of false posatives.. If chem weapons were actually used, the troops would NOT have gotten right back out of their chem gear..

Well much of your stuff is incomprehensible. The rest I comprehend fully. Your hatred of the President would have you saying that the D Day invasions to remove Hitler were unjust. As to the bully stuff I started a thread of YOUR quotes. Shall I renew it if you have forgotten? You claim to be taken out of context but...can give no example.

If you can't comprehend what I say (agreeing has nothing to do with it), then again, I seriously doubt you could be in MENSA.. I'm not talking in any kind of cryptic language, just speaking at an educated level. Since almost 50% of adults in this country can't read at a 10th grade level, I'd suspect some here would be having issues, but certianly not someone in the top 2% of all the worlds intillectual capacity..

And I felt a need to expose the lies and venom you were dispensing AS IF it were true. Your position is not anti war it is clearly anti Bush and from all prior statements of yours anti US as well

Problem is, when I was stating facts to support my opinions, I was being accurate.. Like when I said there was no proof of WMD, to which you said there is proof, yet STILL have not offered anything to substantiate that. The way it works is, my statement is 'true' until disproved.. it's a reasonable and valid statement.. when you say 'there is proof he has WMD', that is construed as 'false' until you 'prove' it.. one simple link to a confirmed report would be all it takes.. you STILL haven't been able to do that, yet I'm making false statements? //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/rolleyes.gif.c1fef805e9d1464d377451cd5bc18bfb.gif whatever..

And, I'm anti-notinthebestinterestoftheAmericanPublic.. that means, Bush could care less about the public with this action, yet he would have us belive Saddam was poised to attack the US with nukes and chem weapons.. he did/does that to try and justify an invasion, yet there is no reasonable proof that Saddam was capable of attacking the US, and still no proof that he 'has' these weapons.. Bush then changed his mind (again) and said we were invading to disarm Saddam as per the global intent (the UN resolutions) DESPITE the global position being that we should have waited a bit.. THEN, Bush changed his mind again and said it was to free the Iraqi people.. and AGAIN.. I submit, the US has never STARTED a war to liberate foreign people.. EVER..

Pull the needle from your arm dude. France, a very liberal nation, was PROFITING HUGE from Iraq which is why they didn’t want anything to change. EEEVILLL American conservatives sacrificed blood, life, limb, and wealth to free a nation. If you can’t see that you are again a fool. I think you know this, again, but refuse to open your eyes.

Well, since I was talking about the US and OUR conservatives and liberals, I guess you managed to 'twist what was said and took things out of context'.. yet you claim you don't do that.. and even went so far as to say you would retract your statement if someone offered proof.. well, I did before, here is more..

The Bushes are from Texas though so they want to steal the oil.

No, the Bushes ARE IN THE OIL BUSINESS, so they want the oil.. Texas has nothing to do with it.. sorry..

You just refuse to get it. The only way to prove 100% is to lay hands on it. There are 3 ways to do this:1-Wait until it is used against us or an ally (again).

2-Go in and lay hands on it.

3-Saddam allows people to lay hands on it peacefully. This was tried for 12 yrs and failed miserably.

 

Now we had proof that was 99.999% a sure thing that Saddam had these weapons on the day of the invasion. We had 100% proof that he had them in the past. We had 100% proof that he had used them in the past.

 

Faced with thes FACTS and the FACT that option 3 failed miserably we are left with 1 and 2. Dubya chose #2 and I support it. You chose #1. SHAME ON YOU!

AGAIN.. you put ideas into people's heads to try and get emotial responses and win arguments that way.. I NEVER said we should leave him be and let him attack us with chem/bio weaps or WMD.. I have maintained that we should have made the final attempt at #3 WITH FORCE THREATING HIS BORDERS.. in that, he 'might' have been more forthcomming than in the past 12 years with a joke of a force at his door.. Yet, you would try to convince people here that I believe something different.. Again, your petty attempts at trying to win your loosing battle by running a smear campaign.. but, whatever..

This is exactly why I left before.. you claim to be in the top 2% of the world's population as far as being smart, yet you insist on arguing like an ignorant schoolyard bully.. How about you show your self-proclaimed intelligence and bring things back up to intelligent adult level? why not? I'm guessing you can't.. How many times have you totally disregared the commonly accepted rules of debate to make yourself look better to those that don't understand those accepted rules? Too many to bother to count, but a LOT..

After all Savant admits to only being a little smarter than an average bear like Boo Boo Bear, which would lead one to the logical conclusion that a SMART bear like Yogi Bear or Smokey Bear would be smarter than he, so the playing field isn't quite level. I wonder if Savant is the screen name used by Ranger Smith?

I guess this is the final perfect example of what I'm getting at.. I said smarter than the average bear, which is a VERY common saying, yet you immediately use that as means to attempt to insult me and try to degrade me to the board.. Grow up.. It's sad that you feel such a strong need to be accepted as to resort to this kind of behavior when you claim to be a MENSAn.. Hell, part of their charter is to use intelligence for good and good only, yet you (if you actually are a MENSAn) use your intelligence to twist things, sckew things, make false analogies, false associations, and come up with creative words to try and run your smear campaign.. Congrats..

EDIT:

I forgot to comment on this.. Yet another perfect example of your lack of comprehension, that or it shows you only want to cause dissention by twisting words to suit your needs..

And from that you figured their personal political beliefs? AMAZING! Or did you assume? Or do you even have a clue? 

There are generous and cruel people on both sides at any rung on the economic ladder.

I was saying (and it's RIGHT THERE in the quote you provided).. That is an example of COMPASSION.. I made NO claim as to his being Liberal or Conservative.. and I agree with the other part of the statement you made.. there are generous and cruel on both sides of the political fence...

I was simply trying to say that most liberals tend to be of a compasionante nature with their social policy, conservatives tend to be much less so.. that says NOTHING about individuals, just about political ideology..

Anyway.. given the distinct lack of anything reasonable being said since I've been gone, and the abundence of attacks instead of debating with my first set of posts after returning just shows me that there is no reason to stick around..

 

[joshpoints 10+ year member]

Originally posted by CarAudioAddict I believe he was just saying that if a person chooses to do stuff like that in their own home, and doesn't bother any one else, and keeps it under control he would be fine with that.

 

While I can agree to a certain point. MOST illegal drugs are illegal for a good reason, they kill thousands every year, and overall are a drag on society. The only exception to this that I know of is marijuanna, it has never directly killed anybody, has no permanent side effects, and is healthier for you than most legal drugs (cigarrettes, alcohol, and many prescription drugs).

 

The laws are made not to protect you from society, but to protect society from you.

The marijuana thing could be argued. It seems like i read that after smoking a joint your chances of a heart attack with in a certain amount of time increases a substantial amount. SO if the person isn't healthy it could kill them. My only problem with marijuana is the issue of second hand smoke, those some would say it is not unhealthy, or the issue of smoking in public, and driving under the influence.

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by joshpoints Because the modern day hitler (bush) was forcing them to, otherwise they would all be slautered. The U.S. is so violent and evil.

Lol, because we are the ones that have guns to their heads and are telling them that if they talk bad about our government or our leaders, we will shoot them in the head. Wake up, please. The people of Iraq were overjoyed that we were there, heck, they even took down Saddam's **** statue, I don't think they would do that if they weren't glad we were there, eh?

 

[joshpoints 10+ year member]

Originally posted by snova031 Lol, because we are the ones that have guns to their heads and are telling them that if they talk bad about our government or our leaders, we will shoot them in the head. Wake up, please. The people of Iraq were overjoyed that we were there, heck, they even took down Saddam's **** statue, I don't think they would do that if they weren't glad we were there, eh?

Don't be so closed minded. You are just like the average american. Look at how many lives were lost in war. What a waist. We didn't really know what the future was going to bring, so we shouldn't have ever gone to war. No war is good. Don't you get it. There's a chance hitler would have left the U.S. alone. There was no need for war. So he killed people, us fighting killed even more lives. If he won we would be speaking german, so what!!! German isn't all that bad is it. You need to trust people like sadam. just because he has built nuclear weapons plants doesn't mean he intends to use them. Just because he used chemical weapons in the last war doesn't mean he will use them in the future. He's very predictable. Your kind of thinking is going to lead us back into the stone age. When women and minorities, or the now majorities had no rights. Why don't you take some prozac. In fact that part of the problem in america, they don't prescribe enough ritalin to the children.

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by joshpoints Don't be so closed minded. You are just like the average american. Look at how many lives were lost in war. What a waist. We didn't really know what the future was going to bring, so we shouldn't have ever gone to war. No war is good. Don't you get it. There's a chance hitler would have left the U.S. alone. There was no need for war. So he killed people, us fighting killed even more lives. If he won we would be speaking german, so what!!! German isn't all that bad is it. You need to trust people like sadam. just because he has built nuclear weapons plants doesn't mean he intends to use them. Just because he used chemical weapons in the last war doesn't mean he will use them in the future. He's very predictable. Your kind of thinking is going to lead us back into the stone age. When women and minorities, or the now majorities had no rights. Why don't you take some prozac. In fact that part of the problem in america, they don't prescribe enough ritalin to the children.

I'm praying to god that you are being extremely sarcastic...

If not, seek major help....

 

[CarAudioAddict 10+ year member]

Originally posted by snova031 Lol, because we are the ones that have guns to their heads and are telling them that if they talk bad about our government or our leaders, we will shoot them in the head. Wake up, please. The people of Iraq were overjoyed that we were there, heck, they even took down Saddam's **** statue, I don't think they would do that if they weren't glad we were there, eh?

I agree. The liberation of Iraq will be great for all its people. Saddam should be killed (if he isn't dead already)

My beef was with why the US went in the first place. But that argument is over as none of will chage our minds

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

I would like to state something, this is purely based on opinion, but just think about it for a second.

If you are an American, and abide by the Constitution and Declaration of Independance, you obviously know that it is said that "all men are created equal," right? So, you may say we lost a lot of lives for a "no good war," but in the end, we are saving thousands of more lives, and so what they aren't American lives? After all, we are all equal, right?

I personally believe that going into the Armed Forces, you have to know that war is a possibilty, and you might be called on to put your life on the line. Every US soldier gets my upmost respect, for the simple fact that they went over there knowing that they might not be alive the next day. Even if you say that they died for no reason, I believe that they died for the freedom of millions who were under the control of a madman.

When I was watching the news, I felt so much pride that I was an American when I saw the people of Iraq waiving our flags, and yelling "thank you" into the camera's.

 

[joshpoints 10+ year member]

Originally posted by snova031 Lol, because we are the ones that have guns to their heads and are telling them that if they talk bad about our government or our leaders, we will shoot them in the head. Wake up, please. The people of Iraq were overjoyed that we were there, heck, they even took down Saddam's **** statue, I don't think they would do that if they weren't glad we were there, eh?

Here something else for you the people didn't tear down the statue, the U.S. did. Again the U.S. is modern day hitler. Open your mind you have been brain washed.

 

[Randy Savage 5,000+ posts]

Originally posted by joshpoints Here something else for you the people didn't tear down the statue, the U.S. did. Again the U.S. is modern day hitler. Open your mind you have been brain washed.

Heh, I guess the US troops dressed up as Iraqi citizens and tore it down, eh?
I think you are the one who needs their mind 'opened'.

 

[LWW 10+ year member]

Then go on to and imply I'm a fool for not believing he lied after I just said you SHOWED HE DID

EARTH TO SAVANT...EARTH TO SAVANT...EVERY newspaper... EVERY news magazine... EVERY cable news network... EVERY TV station... EVERY radio station...the INTERNET...the house impeachment panel...the US senate...ALL have stated publicly that Slick Willie lied...but hey you believed Saddamite Hussinsein also so this isn't a surprise.

Yes, we found shells.. EMPTY.. we found barrels of chemicals that are thougt could either be pesticides or chem weapons.. from what I've seen so far, still nothing CONCLUSIVE..

EVERY time I see this you prove yourself to be an idiot AGAIN. Let's review for the reality impaired:

01-UNSCOM confirms Saddam had chem/bio weapons.

02-UNMOVIC confirms this as well.

03-Saddam admits to having had them.

04-Saddam used them against US in Gulf War round 1.

05-Saddam used them against his own people.

06-Saddam used them against Iran.

07-Saddam Admits to having TONS of the stuff made after the cease fire.

08 Saddam's son in law defected and dropped a dime leading inspectors to many finds in the 92-98 round of inspections.

09-In round 2 of inspections shells made for the express purpose of distributing chem/bio weapons were found. WHY would someone mfr aerosol dispersion artillery shells if not to use chem/bio weapons? Perhaps it was so they could share their water with us?

10-They have been found again now that we are in country.

11-A chemical weapons plant was found in the middle of the desert. It was a site that CIA and Israel both had pegged as a chem weapons plant. It was surrounded by an electrified fence and guarded soldiers with automatic weapons. The official finding last I saw was that it was not in use now. It could be used for routine chemical production also so it was a dual use facility which was required to be disclosed. IT WASN'T. Saddam also knew we were coming so a "clean up" is a real possibility.

12-Tabun was found at a "chemical weapons training facility". Now let's see if your neurons fired on that one? Does the US Army have an "anti matter weapons training facility"? NO. Why? Because we don't have any. If we had a facility to "train" people in their use it would be a safe bet that we probably had some.

13-Knowing that failure to comply put his nation at risk of destruction Saddam for 12+ years refused to comply.

14-Iraq offered NO explanation of where TONS of this stuff went, even though they had admitted having it.

15-If Saddam provided proof of the weapons destruction oil sanctions would be lifted. He refused. They weren't. This cost Iraq and hense Saddam OVER $200,000,000,000.00 in oil revenue.

16-Barrels of stuff were found and test 1 (the canary died) showed chem weapons. Test 2 which was an on site test showed it to be chem weapons. SOldiers on site became ill and devoloped blister...all symptoms consistent with trace exposure to ILLEGAL mustard gas.

17-THOUSANDS of chem weapon suits and atropene injectors were found in Iraq. We do not have these weapons and have no history of using them. If Iraq has non either then WHO were they protecting themselves from.

18-These were found in locations the inspectors had checked.

19-We have telephone intercepts of Iraqi personnel discussing hiding this stuff and being amazed that the inspectors missed stuff.

I could go on and on but the point is moot because as has been noted you would question an anthrax enema.

PEACE

 

[joshpoints 10+ year member]

Originally posted by snova031 Heh, I guess the US troops dressed up as Iraqi citizens and tore it down, eh?

 

I think you are the one who needs their mind 'opened'.

NO I think you need to use your eyes or ears along with your brain. The U.S. used a tank recker ( tank tow truck) to rip the statue down. I didn't see the people tearing it down with hammers. BOy you have been brain washed.

 

[joshpoints 10+ year member]

Quote:

09-In round 2 of inspections shells made for the express purpose of distributing chem/bio weapons were found. WHY would someone mfr aerosol dispersion artillery shells if not to use chem/bio weapons? Perhaps it was so they could share their water with us?

Response:

Ah. Another faulty statement. You are not a very nice person LWW. THis is the problem with conservatives. He may have the shells but that doesn't mean anything. He hasn't used them today on us, or yesterday, so you can't assume this. THe past doesn't matter. Sadam may have changed. THe problem with conservatives, is they make assumptions like this. Example. A man has an illegal gun that currently has no bullets and was stolen, and a car that has no plates, he has a mask in the car. He has a pair of gloves in the car, He has a blue print of the structure of a bank that is two blocks away from him and he gets pulled over. When cop pulls him over he finds all of the items listed above along with detailed information with this bank, including when their cash comes in how many people work at certain hours etc. The close minded conservative that thinks about as wisely as a rat would say this guy might be on his way to rob a bank. The open minded wise liberal that thinks like a human with a high I.Q. would say just because he has these things doesn't mean he was going to use it. In fact the gun wasn't even loaded.

Boy LWW, it's kind of fun joking around with the games Savant does.

LWW you need to open your mind up to ignorance. LOL.

Stop throwing useless facts out on the table. Remember all facts from the government, media, and others, that make the U.S. look good are strictly fictional. LOL.

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by joshpoints Don't be so closed minded. You are just like the average american. Look at how many lives were lost in war. What a waist. We didn't really know what the future was going to bring, so we shouldn't have ever gone to war. No war is good. Don't you get it. There's a chance hitler would have left the U.S. alone. There was no need for war. So he killed people, us fighting killed even more lives. If he won we would be speaking german, so what!!! German isn't all that bad is it. You need to trust people like sadam. just because he has built nuclear weapons plants doesn't mean he intends to use them. Just because he used chemical weapons in the last war doesn't mean he will use them in the future. He's very predictable. Your kind of thinking is going to lead us back into the stone age. When women and minorities, or the now majorities had no rights. Why don't you take some prozac. In fact that part of the problem in america, they don't prescribe enough ritalin to the children.

You claimed I try to twist your words and imply things you didn't mean, then post this kind of crap? -I- know you are being sarcastic here, but you don't even try to SHOW you are being facetious..

As for my twisting your meaning (earlier, about media and the chem suits.. I'm presuming that's what you meant).. I wasn't trying to twist your meaning.. and you didn't really state in what context suits were taken off, and given that we were starting to talk about the pesticides/sarin (to be determined as I understand it), I thought you meant the report that they were back in those bunkers without suits.. I wasn't trying to twist anything.. And, I was also simply trying to apply logic to a situation with the explination that our troops would NOT be taking off their suits if they found 'chemical weapon' chemicals in barrels.. the entire point of those weapons is that being in their presence harms/kills you... so to be walking around exposed chems like that unprotected just isn't gonna happen.. which, again, supports the idea that what was found might not be anything more than pesticides..

If you want to make posts like this one, you really should give some indication that you are being sarcastic..Do you have to? no.. do what you like, but if you aren't willing to make sure you communicate clearly, quit crying when someone has to try and fill in the blanks and does it in a manner you don't like.. *shrug*

 

[Savant 10+ year member]

Originally posted by joshpoints Quote:

09-In round 2 of inspections shells made for the express purpose of distributing chem/bio weapons were found. WHY would someone mfr aerosol dispersion artillery shells if not to use chem/bio weapons? Perhaps it was so they could share their water with us?

 

 

Response:

Ah. Another faulty statement. You are not a very nice person LWW. THis is the problem with conservatives. He may have the shells but that doesn't mean anything. He hasn't used them today on us, or yesterday, so you can't assume this. THe past doesn't matter. Sadam may have changed. THe problem with conservatives, is they make assumptions like this. Example. A man has an illegal gun that currently has no bullets and was stolen, and a car that has no plates, he has a mask in the car. He has a pair of gloves in the car, He has a blue print of the structure of a bank that is two blocks away from him and he gets pulled over. When cop pulls him over he finds all of the items listed above along with detailed information with this bank, including when their cash comes in how many people work at certain hours etc. The close minded conservative that thinks about as wisely as a rat would say this guy might be on his way to rob a bank. The open minded wise liberal that thinks like a human with a high I.Q. would say just because he has these things doesn't mean he was going to use it. In fact the gun wasn't even loaded.

 

 

Boy LWW, it's kind of fun joking around with the games Savant does.

LWW you need to open your mind up to ignorance. LOL.

Stop throwing useless facts out on the table. Remember all facts from the government, media, and others, that make the U.S. look good are strictly fictional. LOL.

*sigh*

I really wish you would stop trying to act smart, and stop pretending to be 'me'.. You complain about people putting words in your mouth, then do not only the same to others, but try to make all kinds of predictions of how they might act.. Sadly, you are very wrong about many things..

Right about one though.. and it has nothing to do with being liberal.. it has to do with being able to use abstract thought (and think for yourself).. Yes, just because he had all that stuff does NOT PROVE he 'would have used it'.. is it likely he would have? yes.. but, given the free will of Man, he might well have sat infront of that bank for an hour struggling with his impending actions, and then decided it wasn't something he could do.. Is that likely given the extent to which it looked like it was researched? no.. but again, the guy in the car 'could' have just walked back to his car while the 'real robber' was trying to steal it (loaded the back seat with all this stuff) but got chased off.. the car owner got in and drove off, coincidently toward the bank.. got pulled over.. By your reasoning, someone that didn't even know this stuff was in his car "will" rob the bank..

That said, I have not once implied that 'maybe Saddam has changed' as you would like to imply (there is that pesky doing what you are complaining others do again), I'm saying the FACT is, having the 'means' to do something is NOT the same as doing it. While there are good reasons to think Saddam might want to use them, the FACT is, he has not.. Another FACT is that we have not yet found any chemical weapons (finding partial deliverly systems is not the same thing, that goes to the means/action point). Nor WMD..

Why is it that none of you guys (that being LWW and Joshpoints, for the most part) can understand SIMPLE statements..

A) Saddam is a bad man.. NOT IN QUESTION to the best of my knowledge, yet you two keep acting like I don't agree with that point..

B) Saddam has had a 12 year past of defiance, non-compliance, cruelty, blah blah blah.. POINT AGREED ON..

C) Saddam WAS starting (how ever reluctantly) to comply once we poised troops on his border. To me, that means we should have continued on with diplomatic efforts.. That's all that means.. Instead, when Saddam was giving an inch when we asked for a mile, we didn't bother to say "no, a mile or we invade", we said "too slow, we are gonna kill you now".. If you can't see the difference, then I submit that you must be a warmonger as well, thinking charging in with guns blazing is better than the display of force and talking.. Course, you keep beating the same old dead drum about the last 12 years, only this isn't about the last 12 years.. you just keep trying to make it that way.. it's about the last 5 months.. From last November when resolution 1441 was passed and Saddam started with the documents.. From that point, it was a fresh situation, previous actions/inactions be dammed *shrug* At least, that's my OPINION on the matter.. in my OPINION, Bush rushed in and pissed off alot of other countries when he didn't really have to. There was NO impending threat to the US that forced us in.. and in that light, we should have tried a little harder to get this done without killing over 100 US troops, 50+ British troops, and over 1200 civilians..