tankertoad
10+ year member
Member
I posted this long thing at Elite as well but when I saw the knowledge base here, I had to ask:
I have a 993 era Porsche 911. It has the stock audio (6.5s and tweets in the doors and 4x6s in back) and it needs-a-replacin'. I already have in the car a two year old Alpine head (9827) with three 4v pre-outs. I'm looking at a basic SQ type system where I'd do a two or three way up front powered by an outboard amp and power the rear 4x6s off deck power. I'm not sure of subs now or add on later.
So I speak to several highly regarded installers with at least some experience in the 911 (I'll keep it anonymous for objectivity) and I get differing options (all within a couple hundred dollars of each other):
1. DLS UP6 in the stock door locations or DLS UP36 with the mid custom mounted in the door as well. Amp is either a Lunar 55WX2 or for a bit extra (good deal for old inventory) a Tru T4.100 with Burr upgrade (could bi-amp then or save two channels for some subs).
2. Focal Polyglass/Pokykevlar two ways in stock doors powered by Audison SRX4 (60W) or LRX4.300 if I want to shell out for the difference. This install would include sealed JL 8W3s in sealed MDF panel encloures behind the front seats.
3. CDT HD 642 three ways with the woofer in the stock door location and the mids/tweets mounted in basic carpeted kickpanels powered by a Zapco 350 (100W X 2).
Reading online and talking to installers, the only constant I find is that there is no agreement on anything. Some love DLS, some aren't impressed. Some love Focals, some say they're too bright/harsh. Some say 50W is enough for the separates, others say 100W is necessary. Many stand by kick panels but it's also been said some vehicles (like my 911) may not benefit enough (justify the expense/labor) and just using the doors can net me a nice enough sound and stage.
If any of the above are expertly installed (basic deadening, good cabling, careful tuning of crossovers, etc) will I even notice the differences among them or the differences in the manufacturers/equipment suggested? In other words, can I go wrong here or just choose one and go with it? Two way or three way? Kicks or no kicks? Titanium dome or silk dome?
About me: I don't listen at very high volumes. Moderately loud is as loud as I go. I listen to a bit of everything but the majority is dance (house, lounge, disco, drum n' bass), alternative/classic rock, and 80's rap.
Remember, I'm not competing or an audiophile. Just someone looking for a quality, clean, well staged system (although I wouldn't complain if Diana Krall can stand in the middle of my windshield). //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif
Yes, I realize the 911 has a poor noise floor (it's a coupe but has an aftermarket exhaust and a sonorous engine note) but seeing as I spend 99% of the time in a 95 mile freeway commute (ea. way) and 1% at the track/canyon road, I'll attempt to do more than drop some replacement speakers in and call it a day.
Some of those installers I mentioned do not have sound boards/rooms, claiming that a board doesn't give an accurate idea of how the speakers will sound off axis in the vehicle. Plus, each installer recommended one set and I'd forget travelling from one to another what each sounded like.
However, I do know this. My neighbor has over 5K in a VW R32 Golf and 15K in an Escalade. The VW has MB Quart splits in stock location/2 JL 10s/JL amps and the Caddy has Morels (unknown which) in stock door/A pillar/4 JL 10s/JL amps. I was allowed to extensively sit and listen to some of my CDs in both vehicles (thanks, James!) and I thought both systems sounded like crap (for the money). Sure, they got loud but the bass was ridiculous (I had to put it at -10 to make it sound ok to me) and the soundstage wasn't there. I could make out a left and right channel in each vehicle! For that kind of money, it made me wonder what my budget (2K but slowly creeping to 3K out the door) would ever get me. I told myself that the crossovers were not set correctly and that the install was subpar. My neighbor is happy so that's what counts. I have a different ear. I did find the Quarts vocals to be pinched and highs too bright and the Morels more to my liking so I guess I prefer a soft tweeter (or a metal dome that's dialed back?).
One installer said if going three way do kicks but if two way just stay with the doors. I understand a three way allows for better midrange resolution and the mid bass can "kick" more as it is relieved of vocal duty but crossover and placement tuning is more critical. It's just that I've read enough to be dangerous and the thought of speakers next to my ear firing across to the other door seems unable to make a decent stage/image. Tell me I needn't worry.
The installer with the DLS/Tru combo said he'd wire me for subs because he expects me to come back to him within a year to upgrade. But his price with Earthquake shallow 8s in fiberglass enclosures is DOUBLE the JL 8W3s that the other guy would put in caprpeted MDF "covers" that "seal" to the footwell where it makes a right angle with the rear seat. The first installer thinks it's impossible to get a true seal with that but the other installer's customers are plenty happy (maybe they don't know what they're missing...)
So, the setups without subs would become a solid 500-1K more expensive than the setup with subs already included if I added subs to them as well. However, the sub inclusive system has Focals so I should probably see if that installer has a suggestion for a softer tweeter brand. Maybe a single sealed 8 or 10 will be sufficient and shave costs (the wife will be watching...)
See why I'm confused?
What I really need to do is get out of the forums and magazines and do some critical listening somewhere...
Thanks. Sorry for the super long post but I don't want to screw up this project.
I've been lurking for a while and you guys seem to know what's what.
P.S. One Eye, if you're here don't mind me!
I have a 993 era Porsche 911. It has the stock audio (6.5s and tweets in the doors and 4x6s in back) and it needs-a-replacin'. I already have in the car a two year old Alpine head (9827) with three 4v pre-outs. I'm looking at a basic SQ type system where I'd do a two or three way up front powered by an outboard amp and power the rear 4x6s off deck power. I'm not sure of subs now or add on later.
So I speak to several highly regarded installers with at least some experience in the 911 (I'll keep it anonymous for objectivity) and I get differing options (all within a couple hundred dollars of each other):
1. DLS UP6 in the stock door locations or DLS UP36 with the mid custom mounted in the door as well. Amp is either a Lunar 55WX2 or for a bit extra (good deal for old inventory) a Tru T4.100 with Burr upgrade (could bi-amp then or save two channels for some subs).
2. Focal Polyglass/Pokykevlar two ways in stock doors powered by Audison SRX4 (60W) or LRX4.300 if I want to shell out for the difference. This install would include sealed JL 8W3s in sealed MDF panel encloures behind the front seats.
3. CDT HD 642 three ways with the woofer in the stock door location and the mids/tweets mounted in basic carpeted kickpanels powered by a Zapco 350 (100W X 2).
Reading online and talking to installers, the only constant I find is that there is no agreement on anything. Some love DLS, some aren't impressed. Some love Focals, some say they're too bright/harsh. Some say 50W is enough for the separates, others say 100W is necessary. Many stand by kick panels but it's also been said some vehicles (like my 911) may not benefit enough (justify the expense/labor) and just using the doors can net me a nice enough sound and stage.
If any of the above are expertly installed (basic deadening, good cabling, careful tuning of crossovers, etc) will I even notice the differences among them or the differences in the manufacturers/equipment suggested? In other words, can I go wrong here or just choose one and go with it? Two way or three way? Kicks or no kicks? Titanium dome or silk dome?
About me: I don't listen at very high volumes. Moderately loud is as loud as I go. I listen to a bit of everything but the majority is dance (house, lounge, disco, drum n' bass), alternative/classic rock, and 80's rap.
Remember, I'm not competing or an audiophile. Just someone looking for a quality, clean, well staged system (although I wouldn't complain if Diana Krall can stand in the middle of my windshield). //content.invisioncic.com/y282845/emoticons/yumyum.gif.0556df42231b304b9c995aefd13928a8.gif
Yes, I realize the 911 has a poor noise floor (it's a coupe but has an aftermarket exhaust and a sonorous engine note) but seeing as I spend 99% of the time in a 95 mile freeway commute (ea. way) and 1% at the track/canyon road, I'll attempt to do more than drop some replacement speakers in and call it a day.
Some of those installers I mentioned do not have sound boards/rooms, claiming that a board doesn't give an accurate idea of how the speakers will sound off axis in the vehicle. Plus, each installer recommended one set and I'd forget travelling from one to another what each sounded like.
However, I do know this. My neighbor has over 5K in a VW R32 Golf and 15K in an Escalade. The VW has MB Quart splits in stock location/2 JL 10s/JL amps and the Caddy has Morels (unknown which) in stock door/A pillar/4 JL 10s/JL amps. I was allowed to extensively sit and listen to some of my CDs in both vehicles (thanks, James!) and I thought both systems sounded like crap (for the money). Sure, they got loud but the bass was ridiculous (I had to put it at -10 to make it sound ok to me) and the soundstage wasn't there. I could make out a left and right channel in each vehicle! For that kind of money, it made me wonder what my budget (2K but slowly creeping to 3K out the door) would ever get me. I told myself that the crossovers were not set correctly and that the install was subpar. My neighbor is happy so that's what counts. I have a different ear. I did find the Quarts vocals to be pinched and highs too bright and the Morels more to my liking so I guess I prefer a soft tweeter (or a metal dome that's dialed back?).
One installer said if going three way do kicks but if two way just stay with the doors. I understand a three way allows for better midrange resolution and the mid bass can "kick" more as it is relieved of vocal duty but crossover and placement tuning is more critical. It's just that I've read enough to be dangerous and the thought of speakers next to my ear firing across to the other door seems unable to make a decent stage/image. Tell me I needn't worry.
The installer with the DLS/Tru combo said he'd wire me for subs because he expects me to come back to him within a year to upgrade. But his price with Earthquake shallow 8s in fiberglass enclosures is DOUBLE the JL 8W3s that the other guy would put in caprpeted MDF "covers" that "seal" to the footwell where it makes a right angle with the rear seat. The first installer thinks it's impossible to get a true seal with that but the other installer's customers are plenty happy (maybe they don't know what they're missing...)
So, the setups without subs would become a solid 500-1K more expensive than the setup with subs already included if I added subs to them as well. However, the sub inclusive system has Focals so I should probably see if that installer has a suggestion for a softer tweeter brand. Maybe a single sealed 8 or 10 will be sufficient and shave costs (the wife will be watching...)
See why I'm confused?
What I really need to do is get out of the forums and magazines and do some critical listening somewhere...
Thanks. Sorry for the super long post but I don't want to screw up this project.
I've been lurking for a while and you guys seem to know what's what.
P.S. One Eye, if you're here don't mind me!
